Split: Soper vs Cleland '92 BTCC tactics debate

[kimducati]

I'd forgotten that bit - the reason Soper was driving a 'worthless shed' (albeit one which he had just driven up through the field and overtaken Cleland for fourth place) is that he had been taken out earlier in the race by David Leslie - John Cleland's team mate!! Is spoiling the spoilers race 'fixing'?
As they say, what goes around, comes around.
And that really IS my last on the subject.

Kim

[NormanCoal]

Originally Posted by Chris Eyre

Perhaps we can start unpicking a few shady world and national titles which have been won from more conventional, but equally dubious crashes, and hound the perpetrators into shame?

Eg, Vic Lee Motorsport and Steve Soper, plainly guilty to the hilt of fixing the result of the 1992 BTCC title in favour of Tim Harvey, which Cleland - on visible pace - would have undoubtedly otherwise won.



What happened to the driver in question? Nothing, yet he's no better than Symonds, or Flav, or any other team person up to the same tricks, past or present.

Vic Lee's tucked up doing time (again) for drugs, but what about Soper? Shall we book him a taxi to Colnbrook for an MSA hearing, asap? Since he's retired from racing on medical grounds, let's fine him a fair few quid instead.

I have a fairly big issue with what you've written there Chris, for two reasons;-
Firstly, Symonds and Flavio have admitted guilt in my view by cutting deals and not contesting the charges, which are to try and fix a race before it even started. The final round of the '92 BTCC was not fixed either before it started or during the race.
Secondly, Cleland being visibly faster than Soper? I don't think so - he qualified in 4th to Clelands 7th, and after being smacked up the **** as a result of tangle trying to pass into 3rd place, he was dead last, so to make up the distance and places to Cleland was a very determined drive, wouldn't you say?

I'm not disputing the question of the crash being deliberate, but bear in mind that Hoy was also in the running for the championship at that round also, not just Harvey and Cleland - Soper would have found it very hard to take both of the other contenders out of the running.....Personally, I think it was Soper's red mist, after the storming drive back up the field, he wouldn't have taken Clelands lean on his car too well

[NormanCoal]

Originally Posted by kimducati

I'd forgotten that bit - the reason Soper was driving a 'worthless shed' (albeit one which he had just driven up through the field and overtaken Cleland for fourth place) is that he had been taken out earlier in the race by David Leslie - John Cleland's team mate!! Is spoiling the spoilers race 'fixing'?
As they say, what goes around, comes around.
And that really IS my last on the subject.

Kim

There was no love lost between Leslie and Cleland, not least because they weren't actual team mates (Cleland in the official Vaux team, and Leslie in the Ecurie Ecosse car). Also, Soper tried to get Leslie's 3rd place, resulting in him spinning - it was the Rob Gravett that caused the rear end damage to Soper's BMW

[Chris Eyre]

Originally Posted by NormanCoal

The final round of the '92 BTCC was not fixed either before it started or during the race.

Originally Posted by NormanCoal

I'm not disputing the question of the crash being deliberate

The definition of 'fixed' does imply an 'arrangement' which in itself suggests pre-race. This is an impossible allegation to point at Soper/Vic Lee, since there is no documeted evidence.

But the body language of Soper's car, and later actions entirely gave away his role in that race. This in turn points to VLM team conversations before the race about strategy (as a minimum, this would be 'to work towards the team's objectives').

Perhaps it took Cleland leaning on Soper to make him lose his rag? Had he not done so, the finish may have remained far less questionable.

As said previously, Soper wasn't bleating about a lost opportunity after the race. Why was that? Suggesting this is down to his sheer professionalism off the back of such deliberate contact driving is a nonsense. They are on telly, to gob off at microphones, and that hasn't changed in 20 years. We would have heard his story had it been available.

[NormanCoal]

Chris, your initial post was about this incident being comparable to that of Flavio and Symonds in the recent Renault F1 scandal - my points were about the BTCC incident being down to something that happened out on track during the race, which in no way would have been premeditated before the race - if Vic Lee and Steve Soper colluded to take Cleland out of the race, they would have left the door open for Will Hoy, the 3rd championship contender......

My statement of the crash being deliberate is taken out of context; if that was pre arranged, then why was Soper so far ahead of Cleland and Harvey in the race at the beginning? Of course Soper was going to do all he could to help Harvey win the championship, but BMW were also after the constructors title so perhaps the bosses wouldn't have been so pleased to see him exit the race........
In my view it was no different to any other racing incident involving tin tops, espcially the BTCC and was taken care of by the stewards of the course at the time from reading this thread - could it have been avoided, yes, of course, thats why Soper and Cleland were both fined.

As for Steve gobbing off into a microphone, it is not his style - any of the rare written interviews with him during his racing career show a very different character, and one that is backed up after his retirement - incidentally, this is very different to Cleland who was/is very outspoken.

[Chris Eyre]

I think we have to dip back to why this analogy was presented: race fixing/altering results.

There is pre-arranged crashing (Piquet) but that is the thin end of the wedge.

As we move up the wedge, we find knocking people off. It might be premeditated, or it might be running out of talent, or it might be somewhere in between, ie where some conscious efforts are being made to physically disturb the car in front. Only that driver knows. The stewards have to work it out, based on behaviour and circumstance.

That conscious effort, often remaining highly secret, is no more immoral than Flav/Symonds, but a damn sight harder to prove, barring car body language and surrounding evidence.

I have also mentioned Senna/Prost. No one knew for certain, until Senna's gob flapped open and he admitted it. Up until then, it was an accident. At that point, the FIA should have come down on him like a ton of bricks, yet they didn't.

Instead of '92 BTCC, I considered mentioning Schuey, 1995 Adelaide, but knew the Tifosi brigade would go nuts, so thought Soper/Cleland was a far more neutral analogy.

Setting allegiances aside (for I suspect I have some Soper fans in the mix) Soper/Cleland was objectively messy for the viewers, possibly the messiest end to a BTCC championship (subjective). In my opinion it was motivated by team barging, and it all got a bit too visible.

What was supposed to be robust genuine racing, Soper present to mark Cleland with every move, tipped over the edge into banger racing and we got more than a whiff of what ideally should have been avoided, ie settling a championship, or a race, causing an outcome which had a significant artifical component which confered a benefit, in this case to a 3rd party (Harvey). Accidents are accidents, but this was clearly more than than just a basic tangle.

Interestingly, fines may have been dished (Cleland/Soper), and Flav/Symonds copped the hit for the latest nonsense, but the title holders remain (Harvey and Hamilton). I read somewhere that the points Massa lost in Singapore easily made the difference on his p1 vs p2 2008 F1 championship position.

Difficult to challenge, yet it all rather blurs the binary focus of any championship: establishing the person who was the year's most consistent/best combined - and leaves a very sour taste.

[16valver]

Anyone been reading Tim Harveys column in Evo mag?

In December issue he talks about oversize engines being rife back in the day and even Nissan cutting down their roofs but up to 1.5" to improve aero.

Tried to scan but scanner was not working. Will try and see if I can get it later.

[Chris Eyre]

Wow! Cutting down roofs It's almost spottable you would have thought?

Definitely worth a read!

[Dogwood]

I'm probably a bit late to the party, but informed word is that Soper's 2.0 S14 motor was actually a 2.5 DTM motor for that last race and he was never going to finish the race....

[Chris Eyre]

Which brings me back to Soper's motives throughout.

No further questions, your honour!

[16valver]

A rare insight...!

[Chris Eyre]

Fantastic. That door thing boggles the mind.

What's also interesting is to see the name John Maguire buried in the text. Ex VW prep expert.

[StuMc]

How spooky...

Was just about to scan that page in myself!

Can you imagine the faces of the techs when they realised the doors were too `big`...

[mr hillclimber]

Tim Harvey's non to shy in all this.... anyone remember the good 'ol "shuv" he gave to the late great Will Hoy during that final race of "92?... or were they "interlocked"!

No form of "dirty tricks" is good to see, but it happens in all forms of sport to a greater or lesser degree.

Apart from "that" incident, I dont remember "Sope's" being anything other than a true pro, his charging drive's from the back of the pack are legendry. In fact, he was voted the best tin top driver "ever" a few years back over all the legends past & present.

If they ever bring back the type of cars & drivers from 92-93 I would'nt mis a round, these day's I cant be arsed... tho Turkington is a worthy champ.

[16valver]

Originally Posted by StuMc

How spooky...

Was just about to scan that page in myself!

Can you imagine the faces of the techs when they realised the doors were too `big`...

Just as well you didnt

I spent ages the other night faffing about with this scanner and could not get it to work, another 20 mins tonight and it worked! I was half expecting it to be up by the time I posted and that scanner would have been out the window!

Yes, the moment it dawned on them what the sneaky works team had been up to, would have loved to have been there. Quite like seeing how far some will go to get the quickest car.

Somehow the roof thing seems quite funny and somehow not so bad as far as cheating goes, they were chancing it, but the oversize engines is just not sporting.

Have you got the 'November' Evo, new McLaren on the front?

There is another good read from Harvey about the BTCC driving standards and the differences between the 'racing incidents' and the deliberate.

[16valver]

Getting better at this now...

Harvey gives the 'forum experts' a mention!