Nige`s Golf MK2 2.0 16V Turbo track car with Aero. www.pinderwagen.com

Discussion in 'Members Gallery' started by Nige, May 3, 2007.

  1. Nige

    Nige Paid Member Paid Member

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    lol I just don`t have the left foot finesse required. I`m getting there though :thumbup:

    ;) Everytime we spoke over the 2 days you had a massive grin on your face and had completed loads of laps. I think you said over 20 on the first day ? I can`t remember what you said for day 2

    Thanks.

    Thanks Eddie. :) That`s what was so good on the RM event, I was able to actually get some laps with other people and I thoroughly enjoyed it. Sam`s car is something pretty special. So it should be ! I could build at least 6 Golfs identical to mine for what his E46 cost... :o He loves it when I point that out lol


    I`m still trying to find time to complete the reports from DN18 and Bilster Berg. Since getting back to the UK I`ve been working pretty much constantly and the odd days off I`ve had, I don`t want to spend sat in front of the computer. It is getting there, but it`s taking longer than I`d like.





    I know this thread gets a lot of views and for all those who keep clicking on it expecting the update from the last trip, I`m sorry but I will get it completed and posted as soon as I can :thumbup:
     
  2. Tristan

    Tristan Paid Member Paid Member

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    A wise man once said, Good things come to those who wait.
     
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  3. Natz Guehl New Member

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    27 Laps on day one and 22 on day two, but is that a lot? I have no real comparsion.

    I sure had a big grin for two days. It was surely not my last DN Event. ;)


    Take all the time you need. As some wise guy said before, Good things come to those who wait. ;).

    And it will be worth every single day I am sure!
     
  4. Nige

    Nige Paid Member Paid Member

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    That`s a lot. Most people don`t seem to get over 20 [:s] I always do but you`d be amazed how many only get 10 or 12 and are delighted by it.

    You were grinning everytime we spoke [:D] Your view isn`t unique as the majority of people on the events have done one before. :thumbup:
     
  5. Romka Forum Member

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    Hey Nige! always admired your project mainly because of all the aero and mods you've done :thumbup:

    I've got a few questions:

    Are you running with LSD? how much difference is it on the tracks?
    How come you're not using additional ARB in the rear?

    I've read that people say that rear wishbone bushing and rear beam bushings shouldn't be polybushings because they don't allow the correct movement of the wishbone and the beam and the TT/R32 bushings have to be used. Do you have any feedback on this?

    I'm also running with polybushes everywhere and thinking if it is the best option for the handling or not.
     
  6. Tristan

    Tristan Paid Member Paid Member

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    Nige has a plate LSD as I recall.
     
  7. Nige

    Nige Paid Member Paid Member

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    Thank you [:D]

    I ran a Quaife for 8 years and now a Plate diff. Any sort of closed diff is an improvement on track in my opinion and one of the best mods I ever made to the car.

    I`m getting old and prefer to have a stable car rather one that`s moving around at the rear. I can drive with a mobile car, I set it to do just that at Spa last year but my preference is a neutral one, hence stock front and no rear.

    I`ve not heard that.

    What do you mean by `best` ?. They have less play than the stock rubber bushes but more than spherical bearings. Ideally, I`d run spherical all round and may do that in the future but I find Poly absolutely fine.
     
  8. Romka Forum Member

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    Thank you for replying.

    I better add the LSD to my "to get" list right away :)

    Here are the threads I've seen about the bushes:
    http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?2118568-Why-(Rear)-Poly-Bushings-Are-Bad
    www.clubgti.com/showthread.php?246929-mk2-golf-poly-bushes

    Also, I read on your pinderwagen site about the roll centre and ball joints. You wrote "Simply mounting the balljoint above the wishbone has no effect on roll centre whatsoever. The Angle from the centre of the balljoint through the wishbone mount is completely unchanged"

    I don't get this, I've discussed it with a friend and he says it should be the same as longer ball joints. Do you have a more detailed explanation on this?
     
  9. Nige

    Nige Paid Member Paid Member

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    Your friend is 100% wrong.:thumbd:

    I have a sketch somewhere, I'll dig it out. Once you understand why, it is so obvious and you'll wonder why you never realised before ;)


    Don`t just buy an LSD because I said so ! If you don`t have an issue at the moment, wait until you do.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2017
  10. Tristan

    Tristan Paid Member Paid Member

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    Nige is 100% right. Your friend is 100% wrong.
    People mix up balljoint pivot position and wishbone angle sometimes.
    To move the roll centre you need to move the pivot point, ie the centre of the ball in the balljoint, lower. Or, raise the inner wishbone mount. But that's a lot harder.

    If you simply bolt the existing balljoint on top of the wishbone, the geometry stays the same. All pivot points remain in the standard places.
    All you've done is make more room for your ARB.
     
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  11. Nige

    Nige Paid Member Paid Member

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    Here you go. :thumbup: A simplistic drawing just to highlight the effect we are discussing.

    Stock setup. You are interested in the RED line. That`s the angle we are talking about.
    [​IMG]


    Spacer between the wishbone and balljoint. It makes the wishbone look at a different angle, but the actual angle from the centre of the balljoint is completely unaffected.
    [​IMG]


    With extended balljoints, you move the centre of the balljoint, so now the angle is changed, which is the entire point of this.
    [​IMG]



    See what I mean ? When you actually draw it, you can instantly see that just because the wishbone looks to be at a steeper angle, it makes zero difference.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2017
  12. abf"d mk1 Paid Member Paid Member

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    I don't see it for one, whether the ball joint is longer or a spacer is fitted, the wishbone is further away from the hub and must lay at the same angle (assuming spacer/longer ball joint is the same length) Don't bother trying to explain it to me.
     
  13. Nige

    Nige Paid Member Paid Member

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    Stop looking at the wishbone angle. It's irrelevant, people think that it matters. It doesn't. ;)

    The angle that actually affects the geometry is from the centre of the wishbone mount to the centre of the balljoint . :thumbup: ie, the one I drew in RED
     
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  14. Romka Forum Member

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    Thank you for clearing it up!

    One more question, how do I know what angle I should have? for example right now I have no idea which ride height I must have for oem roll centre without having extenders. How do you how much you should extend the ball joints?
     
  15. oldnick

    oldnick Paid Member Paid Member

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    That's the spirit!
     
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  16. Nige

    Nige Paid Member Paid Member

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    lollollol
     
  17. HidRo Forum Member

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    Well, with all that explanation done, I have a fair easy question [:D]
    I saw your details in the pinderwagen page, and you show a 200mm( I suspect from cross member to ground) example to be the good, and 110mm to be the bad example.
    After when, it starts to be a real problem? 150mm?
     
  18. Nige

    Nige Paid Member Paid Member

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    I knew I should have removed the dimensions lol


    People often talk about the `wishbone angle` and that`s where the confusion abf"d mk1 and many others have stems from.

    The wishbone angle is a simple way of glancing under the car at rest, seeing if the wishbone is horizontal, higher at the hub compared to the subframe or lower. Because most people don`t run extended balljoints, this is a valid check for most cars as the balljoint pivot point is inline with the wishbone.

    It`s only when you run extenders or move the subframe mounts that it changes.


    The height at the hub end is set by the wheel diameter and sidewall profile. That distance sets the centreline of the wheel to the ground and as the wishbone is bolted to the hub, that`s what changes the distance from the ground to the centre of the wishbone.

    If you raise or lower the ride height, that changes the subframe distance to the floor.


    A very simple starting point is don`t lower the car past the point where the subframe is lower than the centre of the balljoint at rest. That could be 100mm, 150mm or 200mm. It depends on your wheels and tyres :thumbup:
     
  19. HidRo Forum Member

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    Great!
    As I have the whishbones already at level, I assume that is pretty much at the limit.
    Thanks and as always, keep up the good work!
    PS- Ever thought of coming to Portugal for a trackday? :p It's kind of far away, but you never know!
     
  20. Nige

    Nige Paid Member Paid Member

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    Even though I`d had a completely trouble free day at Cadwell last month I was still very apprehensive about 2 back to back days at the Nrburgring and then the next day at BilsterBerg. I had no reason to suspect there would be a problem, I was happy with my preparation but I still had those nagging doubts in the back of my mind as we left home and drove across the M62 to the ferry. I don`t really know why I was apprehensive, but I`m always the same and having 3 back to back days of abuse with no time to repair between them meant I knew that any big issue could affect the entire trip. So far I`ve been very fortunate and despite all the abuse the Golf gets on track, the only overseas day I have been unable to drive was the Nurburgring trackday after 2 days at Spa last year. I realise that I`ve pushed the Golf far beyond what it was designed to do and accept that comes with an increased chance of failures but over the last several years I`ve found and addressed many little issues, several before they even caused a problem and that gave me the confidence to book 3 hard back to back trackdays.

    [​IMG]


    After a trouble free Ferry crossing where we had a relaxing meal and beer followed by a good sleep we made our way across Holland.
    [​IMG]


    Rather than go straight to the Ring we stopped off to see Chris who races in the Youngtimer series in his E30 BMW on the Nrburgring and also at various other European circuits. He had a couple of spare sets of lightly used Hankook slicks that I was picking up off him. I loaded up the Slicks but he owns a Garden centre and Lou couldn`t resist buying some plants she hadn`t seen in the UK before. [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    When we were close to the Nrburgring I called and had 2 of the slicks mounted onto a spare pair of wheels I`d taken.
    [​IMG]


    We then filled up the jerry cans checked in at the guesthouse.

    After unloading the Golf, Lou and Cat walked up the the Lindenhof for beer and to chat with Martin whilst Matt and I made sure the camera SD cards were formatted, unpacked the tyres and plants from the Golf and then walked up to join them. We were going to go to La Lanterna for a beer but Martin recommended a new Italian in Adenau next to the Bredischeid bridge.
    [​IMG]


    The service was good and the Pizza was delicious although there was nothing on the dessert menu that really jumped out at us. Once I came to pay I found out they didn`t accept cards. Thinking nothing of it I drove into Adenau to call at the cash machine, but the town Fest was on and the centre was closed so I had to walk into town instead which was a bit of a pain. We all enjoyed the meal and we wouldn`t hesitate to return.
    [​IMG]


    After we`d finished we popped across to the Comfy Corner to say hi and have some icecream. We`ve been going several times a year for the last 12 years now and it just feels like popping down to the local pub.
    [​IMG]


    After a very leisurely Sunday morning where I actually managed to sleep in for once, we wandered down into Adenau to the Icecafe where we met Steve and Helen. We usually sit inside but it was already very hot so we took the opportunity to sit outside in the shade.
    [​IMG]


    Signing on was at ROTEK as usual and we started setting up at 14:30. We have a streamlined system where we get everything ready for sign on. For once we had finished everything before the first driver turned up to sign on which is unusual as there is usually someone who is very eager to get signed on as soon as they arrive in Nurburg.
    [​IMG]


    The queue for was pretty small and whilst Matt, Claire, Cat and Helen were doing the signing on, Lou and I were on the door welcoming people and checking they had filled in the indemnity forms before they queued. It always surprises me how many regulars still go to queue, then when you ask if they have filled in their form they realise they haven`t and go and do it. At least by intercepting them as the arrive, it saves them queuing only to find they have no paperwork filled in and then have to do it afterwards.


    Initially there was a slow trickle of people arriving and they were signed on without needing to queue, but most people seem to arrive within a 30 minute window which invariably means a bit of a wait. As there were 4 people signing them on it didn`t take too long and people were happy to stand and chat whilst waiting anyway.
    [​IMG]


    A rather varied selection of cars parked up outside as the drivers were waiting for the briefing to start.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    Darren wisely gave the briefing outside in the sunshine.
    [​IMG]


    Not everyone is a driver, a large number of attendees were passengers but they often hang around for the briefing as they are travelling with the drivers. Once finished, the drivers briefing bands were given out and the unlucky few who arrived after the briefing started were given details of the next drivers briefing the following morning.
    [​IMG]

    Once we had tidied everything away around 30 of us drove down to Adenau and had a very enjoyable evening in the Comfy Corner. Sam and I were giving each other the usual banter about his M3 vs my Golf.
    [​IMG]

    A particular highlight was when he was bringing out his usual argument that my power to weight is better, as if that explains why a MK2 golf is quicker than a top of the line E46 M3. By now Sam had drunk a couple of beers and was getting into this argument. I recalled him saying he had 280hp/ton when we had this discussion last time.

    He told us his weight and power and we agreed it was 280HP/Ton

    'So Nige, how heavy is your Golf.'

    "It is around 996kg, call it 1,000 Sam"

    'And how much power do you have ?'

    "Around 280 HP."

    Sam does then mental calculation, scowls a bit and starts doing it on the phone...

    'But that`s 280HP/Ton.. [​IMG] but, er, hang on, let me do this again.'

    He punches the number in the phone and comes up with the same number. By now everyone at that end of the table was in hysterics as we all know the Golf is somewhere between 320 and 350HP but Sam was utterly confused and didn't realise what we were laughing at.

    "So Sam, we have the same Power to weight. So why am I faster ?"

    'Something doesn't make sense here. Give me a minute.....'

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    I`ve been doing trackdays for over 12 years and in that time I have driven over 2,100 laps of the ring and well over 100 trackdays. It would be fair to say I know what to expect on an event and am pretty comfortable with what I`m doing. Why is it then that I still wake up so bloody early before a trackday ! I woke up at 04:45. [​IMG] That is an hour and fifteen minutes before my alarm was set to go off and once I woke, I just couldn`t get back to sleep ! [​IMG]

    The nervousness had gone and I was just excited. [​IMG]. Does this ever stop ? I can`t even imagine how early I would be waking up if I ever went racing [​IMG]

    After breakfast I drove down to the carpark, unloaded the Golf and dropped the trailer off in the overflow carpark. It was starting to get warm already and it was only 07:15. The forecast was for a hot clear day and tomorrow was to be even hotter.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2017
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