1.9 16v G60 on MegaSquirt :: RR result 6/7/10 - Now a 24v VR6 25/10/21

Yan, You should have set up your own VW dealership, would have been cheaper for this 4 year project! Sorry to hear of the set back, are you working on it this weekend? Im home alone if you want a hand. How was BVF?

 

Yan, any chance of a pointer to the US bearing supplier please? The bearings I have were from GSF. They're KS bearings which I thought were what VW supplied, no...? I gather they're inferior in some way, otherwise you'd not be going into the expense you are with your bearings. Are the bearings the greatest part of the expense you're facing?

Interesting about the sensors on the ABF. I was aware of the crank position sensor, and indeed that'd be useful - especially on this setup where the BBM crank pulley might make it a little more difficult to install an aftermarket toothed-wheel setup. I'm not too bothered about knock sensor placement as there are a few good places on the KR block. The cam position sensors though - I wasn't aware of these.

Actually thinking about it, I'm sure I remember someone demonstrate using brand new VW parts to implement a crank position sensor on any block, but I can't remember who it was! Anyone remember? My memory of it is quite sketchy; I just remember someone fitting a sensor housing of some kind on the flywheel end.

vwp6n: I've got a G60 FMIC ready. I'm thinking of pulling the engine out really soon actually. There's a bit of fabrication that needs to be done to make the Syncro conversion work: exhaust manifold, and some custom brackets. I'm not yet sure about going 9A. It's a tempting idea because I have the engine. The thing is though, I don't know what kind of engine characteristics to expect from say a 2.0 or 2.1 when paired with a G-charger. Isn't a higher displacement engine more suited for turbo or BBM supercharger? Any thoughts anyone?

Yan, if you go ABF then will you have to start again regarding pistons? Did you get custom pistons for your existing block?

Another thing about the ABF is that it has got all of the proper threads on the back for mounting the angle drive support bracket. With my KR, I'm planning on having to do a bit of fabrication to get around this.

 

Nice to see youy still plodding along with th Trev.I'll have to rolling road mine so we can get some more data from these engines with different setups.

 

Trever, if you go to an ABF engine then in my opinion you can just simply tranfer all your current control hardware over. You can use 4 window dizzy based engine speed trigger or use 60-2 ABF crank pickup, with a change in software config and output to a MK2 GTi TCI-h and coil, crappy MK3 coil or add IGBTs to output to a 2 channel 4 pole coil pack. Knock sensors not required, that is up to you and how you tune the calibration. You will need to add a MAT sensor and calibrate for the distance it will be from the inlet.
On the engine hardware use stacked gaskets to lower the compression to 9.1:1 that's it. For your level of engine buying the proper pistons would have zero benefit to the torque you will achieve. These pistons in stack gasket spec will handle the cylnder pressures responsible for up to 300lbft. Engine on stock cams and if tuned properly should achieve around 240lbft or so and if this can carry on up to 270PS. But that is really dependant on the density of the charger airflow.
Rear crank pick up/ oil seal assembly is found on later engines as seen from vw vortex. Not required for an ABF motor.

 

Ed,

Ah, yes now I remember - it's an assembly that replaces the existing oil seal panel isn't it. Can be fitted to KR and 9A, IIRC...? It's something I'd consider fitting just so it's there, so I can experiment and see if I get any benefit compared to the present distributor trigger setup.

The one consideration I have about going for a 2.0 block is the fact that years ago I've already gone and bought JE pistons and built myself a 8.5:1 CR, 1.9 engine with them. I know people get on great with stacked gaskets but I went with pistons as I thought it was the best way of doing things; it seems a little step backwards now going for a 2L with stacked gaskets. Considering I'm not really chasing silly power here and I'm already quite happy with how it shifts, is the expense justified for about +100cc? Is there another way of doing things (perhaps by using a 9A block or crank combination) that'd let me go 2L / 2.1L using my JE pistons?

I must admit that when I'm driving it, I do feel that a little more low down torque would be nice...! But given my current intercooler restriction, I know that my 1.9 is should be able to deliver a little more with a better FMIC and further tuning.

 

The benefits from a 4 window hall dizzy vs a OE 60-2 crankpickup vs OE oilseal/60-2 hall assemebly would not be felt if the max engine spped will be under 7500rpm. Just more complication.
If you already have 82.5mm pistons from a KR engine then it would make sense to use a 3A/6A/pre 94 9A engine to be the basis for a forced induced engine. ABF engine and the stack gasket option would be my choice if starting from scratch and the target was a 'low' sub 300PS.
The extra cc's and increased stroke will help in achieving more maximum torque once mapped well. More torque than it has now will mean an even quicker car then you have now.

 

Yep - in fact I think they're 83mm pistons, compared with the standard KR's 81mm.

I remember asking Hotgolf ages back about using these pistons in a 9A. Can't remember what the answer was. Presumably the extra displacement in the 9A comes from crank / rod combination, so maybe I can chuck these pistons into an overbored (83mm) 9A and have a 2.1, with the same low CR as before? I believe the wrist pin height, etc. is all as KR.

As you can tell, I'm out of my comfort zone when it doesn't involve volts, amps and firmware.

 

Where in MT Is that function?

 

Ah, okay, looking in ETKA:

- 9A, KR use same connecting rods.
- KR uses 81mm. 9A uses 82.5mm.
- 9A uses a different crankshaft to the KR.

So presumably the 9A crank gives bigger stroke and the 9A pistons have a different wrist pin to deck measurement than KR?


EDIT: Ah, I had a thread going about this three years ago; the answers are already given to me:

http://www.clubgti.com/forum/showthread.php?t=130568


An added incentive for going 9A / ABF is that those blocks have all the proper mounting threads for Syncro.

 

Trev got a quote from a UK ebay bearing supplier for 50 + VAT and postage for Mahle made crankshaft bearings and lower conrod bearings; I already have a set of conrod upper bearings.

Given that cost and assuming the piston rings are ok, they looked alright on Monday, the only other bits I need are a new headgasket, exhaust downpipe gasket and my time. Dropping the crank is going to be the biggest pain frankly but I would estimate a couple of weekends worth of work should see it all done and dusted.

I did get custom pistons in so far as that they are RS2 items, useful as they have the head clearances for the exhaust valves and are designed for FI, coupled with a stock 16v/G60 crank and RS2 conrods I should have a comp ratio of 8.5:1.

I will be going ABF in the future but I would like to get some development miles on this block to prove the various modifications and refine the design. It also means that I will have a proven low mileage low comp 1.8l block and head to sell when I do go ABF.

 

Hi Trev,

My 16V G60 has just finished being mapped at Jabba, it showed 215 bhp, on the road this is a hoot :-)

This is the plot from last months session, I had a final tweaking one yesterday and it peaked at 215.1 bhp with an almost identical plot.



My boost gauge is showing a max of 6psi - which seems a little down, it is running a 68mm pulley on a Jabba stage 4 charger (the charger is actually of an unknown quality other than Jabba setup it up in 2002 when it was on a Corrado G60, 8 years is a long time to know how it has been used or abused). In the 8V setup it showed 11psi of boost.
I have picked up another charger and had that brought up to stage 4 spec, will be trying that at the weekend to see if it makes any difference.

The only other problem that I now have with the engine is oil consumption, yesterday over 300 miles it used about 1 litre of oil. The strange thing is that I could not see visible signs of oil smoke when driving and I am not leaking any oil. so it must be going back by the pistons. The block is an 8V Rallyee overbored to 1.9 and fitted with BBM pistons, all designed for the job.

I think that I might have to find a way of reducing the crankcase pressure, currently I have a hand crafted casting bolted to the front of the 8V block (there is a hole where the rear charger bracket would normally be and this is piped up to a Bailey oil separator which has a pipe back into the sump and vents to the charger boost return pipe.)
It could also be down to the fact that the engine needs longer to bed in (covered 1300 miles now in it).

Any ideas for a better breather set up ? Or may be I need to have some additional breather on the rocker cover ?
It has the diesel sump gasket/oil deflector tray to stop crankshaft throwing oil back up.

I have been reading up about "Blow By" Meters to actually measure the crankcase pressure across the rev range - might have to look at hooking one of these up to see if I am just not allowing the engine to breath fast enough and therefore cause oil to be pushed up back past the rings.

Great to see yours up and running !!

 

Nice flat torque curve, I bet thats good to drive !

 

Yeah really good torque curve.

Is that using the stock BBM chip or have you had a new custom map done?

Trev, I see in another thread you were after rear mount alternator brackets, RPM Tuning sell them for 150 Euros for the set, here.

Ordered the new mahle main and conrod bearings yesterday (been away) so the aim is to get the work done in a weekend (a lot of bore honing) to keep the build debris down. With the 8.5:1 comp ratio I should be seeing a maximum comp pressure of just under 12 bar so anything around 11.5 bar and I will be happy.

What sort of compression figures are you getting?

 

Stock BBM chip was useless.

It is a custom map at Jabbasport, took about 50+ miles on the rollers to sort it out though, had to go back to sort out a strange over richening at 70 mph when cruising. It does not use the Lambda at all now and is setup on Shell Optimax.

We think that the charger is leaking some boost, I have another to try, just nit got around to putting it on...

 

Yeah despite my compression being down by around 1/3rd it still felt rubbish under acceleration/load. Good to know the BBM chip is useless although I was never expecting it to be on the money just close enough for it to allow a running in period without killing the block through over-fuelling.

Boost leak is a bit of bugger, although you will never get any massive numbers compared to the counterflow 8v setup as there is so much less of a restriction in the gas flow. It's all about the CFM with this set-up.

 

I got another charger and had Jabba rebuild it.
With that fitted it is now showing 11psi at full throttle and 6psi at half throttle and is even more responsive. I have not had it over 4k yet as I need to put 400 miles on it before I do.

With the extra boost the map is now misbehaving, I am getting what feels like a slight misfire at higher boost, Mike at Jabba did say that the map should follow the increased boost, but it does not look like it is going to :-(

Kind of at a crossroads now as to whether to get the Digifant mapped again or go for a modern aftermarket ECU that more local tuners could setup. Been seriously considering the Emerald one...

 

I really wouldn't be giving the car full throttle until you get the fueling checked out as it could be running lean with the increase in boost

Why is the lamda not being used?

 

It's not running lean, I know because i have a stack lambda gauge fitted :-)

I cannot go past 4k until the charger has covered 400 miles, that is part of the Jabba warranty.

I have 440cc injectors and the lambda control in Digifant is not precise enough to control them. Not really a problem to just run off a map without closed loop lambda control, the digifant one is pretty sluggish anyway.

 

You probably don't have to take it above 4K rpm to see 11psi though do you? I find that if I boot it to WOT even at relatively low RPMs the MAP gauge will bang over to 10psi.

I'd be a little nervous about Jabba saying that the map "should" follow the greater MAP. It sounds like you had the car mapped up to 6psi (say) and the table values were only estimated for pressures up to 11psi and beyond? I'd personally want to use the RR to set up the AFR and spark over the entire range.

What are the actual AFRs you're seeing at 11psi?

You may want to consider Megasquirt; it's great because you know exactly what's going on and you can map it yourself with a mate in a single road driving session. Then use an RR session to polish it off, as I did. With MS you don't need to worry about finding a tuner with knowledge of it.

Thanks for posting your progress here; it's really good to hear you're getting further. I don't have much to report myself at the moment, except for the fact that I've actually driven my 16VG60 quite a bit this weekend (blown the dust off it after coming back from holiday!) and it's still performing great.

I've now got my Syncro shell sitting in the new garage with an empty engine bay, and so I'm now starting to think more seriously about what to do with the engine when it's transplanted across.

Think I'll definitely keep it as a 1.9 now, because I spent quite a bit of money making it what it is and I'm happy with the kind of power it's making.

 

Hi Trev,

With the new charger it bangs over to 11 psi really quickly and all before 2000rpm is reached.

AFR remains around 14:1, I am pretty sure the map is just not going to be right for 11psi, if I keep the throttle opening so that it does not exceed 6psi then it is the same as before.

Not really looked at Megasquirt, will need to do some research. Did you ever put together a list of sensors required to make it work ?

Hmmm would be great in a syncro :-)

Any Megasquirt pointers or tips greatly appreciated.