16 valve engines - OEM, tuned + race outputs

Discussion in '16-valve' started by A.N. Other, Aug 16, 2010.

  1. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2003
    Likes Received:
    447
    It's a long while ago - originally the car was up for sale, and later the parts broken to get it sold.

    Here's the car ad on a Google rummage:

    http://forum.performancevwmag.com/viewtopic.php?t=39257

    Rallycross reference here in engine build +

    That's presumably Andy Waite with the Mk1 sprint car now?

    May have to split these posts out later.
     
  2. mk1. Forum Junkie

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2003
    Likes Received:
    39
    shame it was split up before its full potentional was unleashed,the exh ports look bigger than the touring cars eng.
    DSCF0024.jpg
     
  3. Dave

    Dave *Very Smart* Pedantic Old Fart Paid Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2007
    Likes Received:
    473
    Location:
    Sligo, Eire
    As an Audi aficionado. It is so gratifying to note that Audi were the best tuners.

    Would you begrudge me this pleasure?

    As my average number of valves/Audi is 12. I appear to be right in the middle?
     
  4. LeftcoastTigger Paid Member Paid Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2010
    Likes Received:
    3
    MkI, an ancient but respected Kawasaki study on motorcycle race engines proved that hp gains were available if primary exhaust pipe diameters were gradually increased over their total 525mm, and that 90% of the effect was gained by increasing the diameter of the first 185mm by approximately 3.0mmd (edit: 3.0 millimeters, drop the "d"):clap:

    Exhaust flow on some heads may also be improved by gradually blending the port into a D shaped cross section over the approximately 35mm between the bowl and manifold face, exit as shown in your photograph - - maybe this technique was instrumental in increasing the flow efficiency of that particular head - - and let's not forget the valve's underhead radius and combustion face (not all are flat) are also critical[:x]

    Proven principles sometimes overlooked by amateur (and some professional) head porters include the golden rules of encouraging laminar flow asap and avoiding sharp turns/rapid sectional changes due to the turbulence created - - likewise avoiding excessive diameters as best N.A. results are gained with gas velocities of around 120mtrs/sec intake and 90mtrs/sec exhaust:thumbup:

    If curious as to the effects of temperature, pressure, and cross sectional area on gas flow, check out Boyle's, Charle's, and Pouisulle's Laws, the latter being less well known and in layman's language stating, if I remember correctly, "If you take an orifice of w diameter through which x volume of gas passes in y amount of time at z pressure; and then halve the diameter of that orifice, you now require 4 times the pressure to shove the same volume of gas through in the same amount of time":p
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2010
  5. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2003
    Likes Received:
    447
    What is "mmd"?


    Here's an Audi STW motor, early spec, from the Audi BTCC/STW thread, which shows them doing this:
    For my money, there is too much taken off that head above. If it was needed, Audi Sport would have done it.
     
  6. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2003
    Likes Received:
    447
    Carving off a slice of win from a 16v racing campaign? No can do Dave! It's a Golf 16v head on that engine, stolen and put in an Audi 80 and then orchestrated into a BTCC/STW Audi A4, where it didn't technically originate! (although the rules allowed it!).

    That Audi were fortuitous enough to be racing in series (BTCC/STW) which permitted a higher level of modifications, dry sumps (+ varying interpretations of 'cheating' across all mfrs, eg casting their own blocks! ;)), required less durability and engine life, all of which yielded a higher peak power output. This does not peg Audi ahead of VW!

    Chalk, cheese & circumstance!

    There were some VW Supertouring-type engines around, one in this Mk2 Golf Supertourisme car:

    [​IMG]

    ... believed to be a Lehmann unit, but only Idorap has some awareness of it and a date to put it into context!

    PS, don't mention Audi V8 heads [:p]
     
  7. LeftcoastTigger Paid Member Paid Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2010
    Likes Received:
    3
    Chris, millimeters diameter - - in this case an oopsa to mistakenly add the "d" when I should instead have been counting, err, nuts and bolts

    Will edit[8(]
     
  8. LeftcoastTigger Paid Member Paid Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2010
    Likes Received:
    3
    Chris, exhaust port configurations remain a contentious issue, particularly when modifying standard production heads as compared to those specifically designed for high performance

    I was once privileged to sweep the floor for a highly respected still-under-the-radar Northern California engine builder, whose 1600cc Toyota engines competed in an "anything goes but exceeding 1600cc" race series:)

    Whilst competitors ran a 4A-GE block and heads, he used the just released 7A-FE with it's 20mm? taller block height, his own cunningly developed "small port" 4A-GE heads, super long rods, and custom everything:o

    One competitor complained his engines must have been producing close to 270hp, as concluded by their radar gun readings of vehicle top speeds at the same meets, and hard figures generated from their own engine dyno developed, subsequently chassis dyno tested, engine[:s]

    Muttering "it sounds like a motorcycle engine", scrutineers pored over it only to find - - <1600cc[8(] (of course they were unaware of piston to valve head dynamic clearances approaching 0.50mm etc etc, but I digress);)

    That cylinder head and header combination followed the principles described in my earlier post

    Further subtleties included exhaust ports whose flows approached 90% of intake as distinct to the more commonly accepted 70 to 80%, and large diameter 4-2-1 as compared to 4-1 headers:thumbup:

    Having also watched him develop my 2.5 and 3.0 litre 2 valve Alfa V/6 heads into highly respectable performance street and race heads respectively, I quickly sold my recently purchased Superflow bench, respectfully pay homage to the true artists, and willingly support their black art with my hard earned cash when available:clap:

    All hail to ClubGTI members who embrace this field, especially if doing so for a living:thumbup:

    ps must minimise future posts for some time if I'm to supply the promised wishbone figures, to say nothing about securing another job, moving home etc etc[xx(]

    pps no prizes for guessing why I'd chose an ABF block over 9A for high performance use:thumbup:
     
  9. RobT

    RobT Forum Junkie

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2003
    Likes Received:
    975
    Location:
    Cheshire
    Mk1 Toledo didn't have the ADL at all. But it did have KR, PL, and ABF.
     
  10. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Likes Received:
    3,320
    Location:
    Creating Pfredstarke
    Just checked as well as there is no mention of the ADL used in the 1L Toledo.
    The ADL engine code seems to have appeared in '93 in the 6K chassis.
     
  11. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2003
    Likes Received:
    447
    Yep ADL had been removed long since, I'd put it to a question mark (post 3). Mysterious cars these:

    toledo_fia2_1994.jpg

    - I've never come across any race specs on them - the UK car was full of old Mk3 Golf rallying bits - so it can sit for now, but I reckon all routes lead to Lehmann, judging from what Billb turned up in Gatan Hayot's Mk3 - here.
     
  12. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2003
    Likes Received:
    447
    The Ibiza kit car bar goes up again. Lehmann have just produced an engine at 294PS / 290bhp :clap:
     
  13. vw_singh Events Team Paid Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2003
    Likes Received:
    793
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    :o How many of these would I need?

    [​IMG]


    Gurds
     
  14. mk1. Forum Junkie

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2003
    Likes Received:
    39
  15. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2003
    Likes Received:
    447
    Trying to find out! I am going to guess EUR 15-20k. A rebuild costs EUR 11k, and this was built from all new parts!! [​IMG]

    Dribble.
     
  16. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2003
    Likes Received:
    447
    Yep, that's the UK car, full of old Mk3 GpA rally car 'junk', junk being a relative term!
     
  17. Idorap Forum Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2007
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    France
    Yes In the french supertourisme Golf It was a 1,8 L lehmann KR based engine, I still have a piston , It have a 18 mm pin unstead of 20 mm !

    Concerning Kit car engine : take care that rules change in 2001, with a more restrictive restrictor at the intake :

    Old : max surface of intake port : 16cm2
    New : 11,34 cm2


    It can change a lot the power output !
     
  18. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2003
    Likes Received:
    447
    Hi Julien, from recollection the FIA got bored of watching PSA give the first tier WRC boys a driving lession on tarmac in their F2 Zsara's & 306s !

    All of the declared outputs in post 3 are pre-2001, all of which potentially makes that 290 even more impressive. I'll try to find out if there's a restrictor on it.

    Is the Golf Supertourisme piston 81mm?
     
  19. LeftcoastTigger Paid Member Paid Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2010
    Likes Received:
    3
    Idorap,

    Sincere thanks for contributing technical specifications as possible; even odds and ends of information help build a picture of what the entire engine spec was likely to have been, and serve as a guide to those of us planning to build similar high output engines:thumbup:
     
  20. Idorap Forum Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2007
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    France
    Yes 81mm, I have to measure it again, and take a picture !

    Restrictor has been fitted in 2001 on all kit car (see MK3 KC homologation form)

    But like you I wonder why they just have done 265HP with the ABF, and in the same time seat has done more than 280hp ?

    Maybe VWM customer have a stronger version with less power than official team ?
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice