1983 Golf MK1 1.8 DX GTI - Bosch Distributor Springs...

Discussion in '8-valve' started by Zender Z20, Dec 16, 2022.

  1. Zender Z20

    Zender Z20 Paid Member Paid Member

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    Getting around to rebuilding at least one of the dizzies, if you're thinking of doing any of this yourself the following will possibly be of some use, I certainly wasn't aware 'till I began looking into these further...

    There's a felt patch inside the casting through which the main shaft passes, it acts as a wick to soak up engine oil and keep the lower part of the shaft lubricated.

    The dizzy pictured here is an earlier casting (MK1 Golf) and has a hole on either side, later castings such as the one on my MK2 only have the one. The later dizzies also have a green 'O' ring that these don't, despite looking like it should.

    That spiralling at the top of the shaft, just where it meets the underside of the plate I think acts to replel oil getting further up and into the main body by forcing it back down.

    You can see the original felt was completely shot. The new piece, if cut close to the dimensions given will sit exactly in the area created between the pressed in shaft collars.

    You should check these collars for lateral shaft movement if you've got this far dismantling yours, they can be replaced if necessary.

    On the top of the shaft, where the rotor arm is later pushed on there's another felt pad (missing from these images is a screw that's there when reassembled).

    Apparently it's recommended you drip a spot of engine oil on it periodically and keep it saturated (using the dip stick when checking levels) and it'll seep down to lubricate the contact area between the main shaft / advance mechanison sleeve which are grouped on the upper side of the plate.



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  2. Cressa Paid Member Paid Member

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    Well I've just had another great read of this thread. Massive info that blows my mind.
    I have come to the conclusion that I won't be refurbishing mine as I just can not find it!! (Probably will after I get a replacement)
    So I need to source a replacement. The downside is I don't even know what part number mine should be for the mk2. Is this according to my chassis number for the early EV GTi.
    And if ever I find mine, I will post it you for your research
     
    Zender Z20 likes this.
  3. Zender Z20

    Zender Z20 Paid Member Paid Member

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    Cheers... it'll turn up, don't be rushing out to get another just yet.

    After looking for a (used) genuine one myself, they're turning out to be not that thick on the ground.

    Can be pricey too depending on what you're after, sods law says yours will be one of the scarce ones!

    RJ's lists earlier in the thread and some of the references I was finding may well be able to identify what was originally on your car... stick up the engine type / number and between us we might be able to home in on it.
     
  4. Zender Z20

    Zender Z20 Paid Member Paid Member

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    Think I've taken this as far as I can, insofar as my own dizzie (026 905 205 H) is concerned at any rate.

    Biggest hurdle is getting information... if I'd a much wider resource that gave me all Bosch dizzie component part numbers I could probably continue on to the point of being able to scratch build a particular version or even modify one to suit whatever advance characteristics were sought.

    Short of buying an example of every dizzie listed below to confirm, in theory this list should show those that share the same Hall sender / trigger wheel... useful knowing in it's own right if yours has failed and needs replaced.


    026 905 205 AA
    026 905 205 AB
    026 905 205 AC
    026 905 205 AD
    026 905 205 AF
    026 905 205 AG
    026 905 205 AH
    026 905 205 AJ
    026 905 205 AK
    026 905 205 G
    026 905 205 H
    026 905 205 J
    026 905 205 L
    026 905 205 N
    026 905 205 P
    026 905 205 Q
    026 905 206
    026 905 206 A
    026 905 206 AC
    026 905 206 AD
    026 905 206 B
    026 905 206 C
    026 905 206 E
    026 905 206 F
    026 905 206 G
    026 905 206 H
    026 905 206 J
    026 905 206 K
    026 905 206 T
    027 905 205 F
    027 905 205 H
    027 905 205 M
    027 905 205 Q
    027 905 205 R
    049 905 206 D
    049 905 206 F
    049 905 206 G
    050 905 205
    050 905 205 A
    050 905 205 B
    050 905 205 C
    050 905 205 D
    050 905 205 E
    050 905 205 F
    050 905 205 H
    050 905 205 J
    050 905 205 K
    051 905 205
    056 905 205 L
    175 905 206 A

    The length of the list is deceptive as it covers versions of the same dizzie which for different reasons have their own part number (caused by something as simple as a change in connector style for example).

    Got to stress, those on the list only share the Hall sender / trigger wheel and aren't necessarily interchangable as complete dizzies.

    There's a three digit number stamped onto the base plate attached to the central shaft, from what I can see it denotes the centrifical values of the arms / weights and springs it holds. I've yet to find any reference or list that says which base plate is fitted to whatever dizzie so there's no way of using the number even you have it.

    In my case it's 726, but if you can find another dizzie with the same corresponding number as your existing one it'll swap straight over along with the Hall sender / trigger wheel meaning the only thing you'll have to change is the vacuum canister (apart from rotor arm / cap potentially).

    For mine... 026 905 205 H, there's one that I can confirm matches and it's 026 905 206 A

    This particular one features on RJ's list of a few pages back which suggests the others he's given may well also have the same centrifical assembly.
     
  5. Cressa Paid Member Paid Member

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    Okay, so I have finally found my distributor and the one that was in a box is spares when I bought the car. Now I'm pretty sure the spare which has an oval connector would not fit anyway.
    Z414
    0237 023 007
    071 905 205
    The one I removed is
    Z415
    0237 020 133
    02690525AA
    I am hoping the AA is correct for my car...... as it was a non runner that I managed to start. No idea what the other one is from, but I am happy to send it to you, for you to take apart and gain more wisdom from.
    Unfortunately my AA model looks to have worn where the clamp holds it, so I may try and find another that I can refurbish
    If you need more pics, just ask
    20230401_112151.jpg 20230401_112114.jpg 20230401_112240.jpg 20230401_112209.jpg 20230401_112318.jpg
     
  6. Zender Z20

    Zender Z20 Paid Member Paid Member

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    I'm relying on on-line data so probably best to have RJ confirm all of this over again to be sure...

    (I'm also having to use the Bosch numbers instead of VW's for the same reason which is pickling my head jumping back and forth between the two, so a stong chance of me making an error also!)

    Anyhow - the first one, your spare - Bosch 0237 023 007.

    I'm getting that as being from a Transporter III, 1979 to '82, 70HP 1970cc petrol.

    The vac. canister Bosch 1 237 122 717 (2717 should be stamped on the arm if you take it off) seems to be specific to just three of them so probably has a value in it's own right.

    The Hall sender from the spare covers a much wider range, some Audi 80's / B2 Passats / a lot of Transporters / Cabbies and a Scirocco but interestingly (for me at any rate) the MK1 Golf GTI 1.6 and 1.8.

    Unfortunately though it's not looking like it's compatible with your own (AA) dizzie or else it'd have been a useful spare.

    That's a different number to the Hall sender I'm using in my dizzies, but it's likely just the same one but yours has the oval plug and mine the rectangular.

    Your AA dizzie (Bosch 0237 020 133) is shown for a short list of models, but does include the MK2 1.8 GTI 112HP from 1983 - '91 (that last part is very general, obviously it'll not suit the later MK2's in reality).

    The Hall sender on this one is the same as mine - Bosch 1 237 011 073 - because it has the rectangular connector.

    That's borne out in your last image of the trigger wheel with 063 stamped on it.

    The vac. cannister will be Bosch 1 237 123 021 (has 3021 stamped on the arm) and is correct to your car but not mine.

    Yours and mine are good examples of dizzies that can be used to repair / create one another, the main centrifical weights and trigger wheel / Hall sender are shared with just the easily swapped over vac. cannisters being the difference (over and above potentially different cap and rotor arm which is even easier to sort out).

    The notches on the base of your AA one were likely caused by someone trying to extract it, but are purely cosmetic and shouldn't affect it.

    When you're re-fitting it again make sure to put the thin paper gasket some kits have on the underside where the aluminium dizzie sits in the iron block.

    Goes a little way to preventing future seizure caused by them reacting to one another.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2023
  7. Zender Z20

    Zender Z20 Paid Member Paid Member

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    Something more general... I'd a go at taking off the trigger wheel on a later dizzy, the Digi MK2 8v type that doesn't have the centrifical weights nor a vac. canister (visually different because of the shorter body it has as a consequence).

    Tried using the three legged puller pictured above and now know these aren't meant to come off like the earlier ones do.

    The wheel must be factory press fitted to the main shaft and will bend if you try to force it.

    The only way I can see to get into the Hall sender should you need to replace it is by punching / drilling out the pin that holds the toothed gear to the shafts bottom and removing the entire internals up and out the top.

    The Hall sender is instead attached to the outer casing by screws and stays in situ where as doing this with the earlier set up would've brought it out with all of the other gubbins that's also attached to the shaft... something to bear in mind!

    Rebuilding another early dizzy and was trying to photo some of the numbers I was coming across as a reference for again.

    It was only looking at the enlarged image afterwards that I noticed what looked like 32 is infact 3.2 which tallys with the depth of the plastic buffer at its widest.

    Going to speculate this is one of the ways Bosch modified dizzies to change centrifical advance characteristics, there's an identical black plastic cap on one end of each of the weighted arms and it helps determines the extent of their travel.

    If you had some way of testing the effect of changing that thickness you'd be a long way closer to being able to tune the centrifical advance to whatever way you wanted.

    Problem is, just knowing what to do and what measures what is useless without comparison figures to be able to interpret them.



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  8. Cressa Paid Member Paid Member

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    May I ask where you bought your replacement Hall sender kit from please. I definitely need one. Have you also managed to find a source for the vacuum canister?
    Big question on the vac is how does all of that mechanically move and what difference does it make.?... it cant move far!
    20230401_172702.jpg
     
  9. Zender Z20

    Zender Z20 Paid Member Paid Member

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    Unfortunately if it's a new Bosch kit your after it'll just be a case of trawling all the usual places until one pops up.

    Google 1237011073 and there's a few being offered about the globe, Italy, the US etc. (ignore the Egyptian seller, it's only the sender with none of the other bits) but none are cheap, then you've to factor in customs / VAT etc. if it gets pulled in on arrival.

    It's a gamble like any used part, but you've obviously mastered taking off the trigger wheel so an alternative would be getting one from another old dizzie with the same sender and might work out much, much cheaper?

    What makes you think yours is toast?

    I haven't found a source for genuine vac. canisters yet, it's probably just the same with these as it is with finding genuine Hall senders.

    There are 'copies' being made available, but I can't vouch for them.

    Did try to get the main UK supplier to elaborate on the specs. and why they're being advertised as fitting such a wide range of cars when Bosch specified them for a very much smaller list of specific ones, but the silence is deafening.

    Again it'll probably be easier / cheaper to find a used dizzy from the list that has one fitted.

    A dirty vac. canister test is to simply suck on the inlet/outlet pipe.

    The arm will visibly pull in, if you hold the vacuum with the tip of your tongue for a short while and it's working it should stay there until released.

    Will at least show the inner diaphram isn't torn.

    If you've a vacuum tester (Mityvac or similar) you can get the actual pressures it kicks in from and too if you want to go a step further with your checks.

    You're right, the vacuums involved are tiny, even with a gauge that operates at those low amounts the ranges are small.

    The movement of the lever that the vacuum causes pulls it in towards the canister and with it the stud it's connected to on the underside of the uppermost plate. As that plate rotates it moves the hall sender position and temporarily advances the timing, it's similar in principle to when you are setting up the overall timing by rotating the entire dizzie in the block.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2023
  10. Zender Z20

    Zender Z20 Paid Member Paid Member

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    Even being able to take off the trigger wheel (on the earlier mechanical / vac. advance dizzies) isn't really enough if you're going for a proper clean / refurb. as you'll need access to the underside of the bottom plate and potentially even the felt wick in the shaft tube.

    Because of that taking off the geared wheel is optional (but essential on the non-mechanical / vac. advance tall dizzies).

    On the VW ones I've seen they're secured with a solid pin that passes right through the geared wheel and shaft, on the Ford guinea pig it was similarly done but using a spring pin instead so presumably Bosch reckoned either is up to the job.

    I've read articles on-line saying how the solid pin can be hammered or pressed out, and maybe it can with the right tools, but it was beyond what I've access to.

    I'd imagine even you did get it out OK they may well be one use items... I'd a go at punching / pressing one out and they're not made of an overly tough material.

    I ended up drilling it through instead as it was beginning to squash, even under moderate pressure, so it's possible it'd be compromised regardless of coming out intact.

    To my eye the solid pins are straight and not tapered, there is a flanged end to the entry hole on one side of the geared wheel that might make you think they are, but I also think it's so the pin can flatten itself out into that collar as there's 3x slits that encourage it to do just that.



    IMG20230406114548.jpg

    Took a bit of trial and error but found 4mm x 22mm spring pins fit perfectly, does takes you to press them in though as it's an extremely tight fit but they'll not come back out again easily either.

    I've had few dizzies apart now and ironically with the exception of my original all the others have been surprisingly gummed up.

    Seems to be old oil / lubricant that's dried out is the main culprit and likely a lack of re-lubricating the felt pad that sits under the rotor arm on the shafts tip.

    That's actually very imortant as it turns out as it lubricates the sleeve the centrifical advance arms rely on. If it dries up or seizes your centrifical advance will be affected or even non-existant.

    The upshot is the mechanical advance centrifical arms were sticky and reluctant to move under finger pressure on most despite being outwardly in good nick.

    Once cleaned up and re-oiled the difference is major, with everything spinning effortlessly.



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    Last edited: Apr 6, 2023
  11. Cressa Paid Member Paid Member

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    Sorry for my late reply. I have some pictures to put up but they are on my tablet which I am not with. Anyway, I did the vac test and it was fine, so I decided to de-rust, treat and paint this. I have given the canister a clean, de-greased, then lubricated the wick and spring parts. Not brand new looking but acceptable when it is done and at least it is still the original one. Just waiting on a hall sender as I have a Beru rotor arm and cap already. Thanks for the help, yet again.
     
  12. Zender Z20

    Zender Z20 Paid Member Paid Member

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    They're pretty robust things, my original one has 165K on it and there's no wear or play in it at all, just needed a clean.

    Even the Hall senders seem to go on forever, anything I did read about them failing only seemed to be because the fine wires from the connector got broken and not because of the electonic side of things.

    Reasonably regular lubrication of that felt pad below the rotor arm seems to be key to making them last.

    Still think I'd be happier with an old Bosch dizzie rather than a new shiney repro.

    You should stick that spare you have up on eBay, seems to be specific to just one particular engine type that's in the Transporter III Bus / Van and Flatbed so for once it's maybe genuinely scarce?

    https://www.x1-autoteile.de/index.p...ticleNo=0+237+023+007&groupnode=&genArtNr=683
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2023
  13. Zender Z20

    Zender Z20 Paid Member Paid Member

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    Back to this... You'll maybe have seen that I was gifted a GTiE engine in another thread.

    Long story short it came with what appears to be it's original dizzy.

    I'm in the throws of opening that up, primarily to clean / get it working again, but if it turns out to be the one GTiE sent out with the conversion it might also be an opportunity to shed some light on what they termed a 'modified' distributor if I can find any adaptations / changes to it.

    Going to have to come back to that aspect of things later as it's still in bits, but was sorting out the vacuum cannister along the way.

    It was initially holding vacuum but post clean up wasn't unfortunately, you'll see in one of the images below that a pin hole had corroded through and my removing of the rust had opened it up completely. Shame, but better finding it now that puzzling over why it wouldn't work later I suppose.

    Have seen diagrams of their internals before but opened it up to see for myself and thought it might interest some of you lot also...

    All very simple and self explanatory from the images.

    Still not 100% confirmed how Bosch could make one vac. cannister precisely operate at a different rate to another but it's maybe to do with the 2 x notches I've shown?

    They limit the travel of the arm back and forth and changing it would presumably allow some degree of control?

    IMG20230613151313.jpg IMG20230613151331.jpg IMG20230613151348.jpg IMG20230613151406.jpg IMG20230613151449.jpg IMG20230613151549.jpg
     
  14. Cressa Paid Member Paid Member

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    Great update and how the heck did you manage to split it?
     
  15. Zender Z20

    Zender Z20 Paid Member Paid Member

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    The back part of the cannister has a lip that over laps the front and is crimped on.

    Ground around the circumference 'till that lip parted company, think trying to prise it off instead would've ended in a chewed up mess.

    Been looking at it more and think I'll have a go at fixing this, should be doable.

    Plug the pin hole and araldite the cannister back together with the diaphram sandwiched between... it's all still intact and the various bits have at least 3 or 4 mm to play with.

    These things are getting scarce, has to be worth a try.

    You can see there's graduations etched into the arm, almost like a steel rule.

    They're easily seen now that things are apart but you can still just about make them out on complete cannisters.

    Checked a few others and they all have them.

    I'm going to speculate that's how Bosch calibrated the vacuum settings, if I'd a box of cannisters to tear apart I'd nearly put money on it you could work out the vacuum / meaurement correlation with the various figures you'd find.

    Just as an aside this cannister (3021) is correct to the dizzy, I was half expecting to find GTiE had swapped it out for a differently set up one and that'd account for the 'modification', would've been an easy / cheap job for them but it's looking like it must be something else.

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  16. Zender Z20

    Zender Z20 Paid Member Paid Member

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    Had the dizzy that came with the GTiE engine stripped right back / cleaned and able to see the corresponding numbers I'd found on others I'd apart previously.

    For want of naming it, the GTiE dizzy is Bosch 0237 020 133 / VW 026 905 205 AA.

    The engine is a GTI 1.8 8v EV on Kjet.

    While the engine number isn't clear to help date it, the head is dated 03/12/85.

    The engine conversion was done in June 1986, so it's very likely head and block are a pair and were together from new.

    The GTiE dizzy is Bosch dated 549 (Sept. '85), again suggesting it's the original one to the engine and supposedly later 'modified' by GTiE.

    I've a spare VW 026 905 206 A, which from RJ's chart was superceded by the GTiE one... the should both share the same mechanical and vacuum advances.

    And that's what I've found... they both match their own and each others Bosch / VW specs. insofar as vac. cannister / Hall sender / trigger wheel (063) go.

    The GTiE still has a Bosch rotor arm and even it matches what it should.

    The cap though is a generic one with no way of identifing it against it's Bosch equivalent, though even I could it wouldn't shed any light on what GTiE fitted as that's been obviously replaced at some point by it.

    I'd thought maybe the mechanical vacuum might've had different thickness of buffer on the ends of the arms to change the spec., but no.

    From what I can see it's a 100% bog standard dizzy with the correct spec. for the age / type of engine the conversion was carried out on.

    Either the GTiE 'modification' relates to something I can't check or would it maybe be them indulging in a little marketing / gilding the lillie and classing, say adjusting the base timing settings as a 'modification'?

    Over and above the cannister having a leak, the plates that it would've acted upon were seized together so it wouldn't have worked in that state anyhow.

    Everything now cleaned up and working perfectly, also have a spare 3021 cannister from the VW 026 905 206 A dizzy, but then it appears it'll work as a unit with the engine anyhow.

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    Last edited: Jun 14, 2023
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  17. Zender Z20

    Zender Z20 Paid Member Paid Member

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    Put the Frankenvac cannister back together / fixed the pin hole and it works once again, though does look a little scappy and why it's not back on the refurb'd dizzy.

    Checked its post fix vac. pressures and they closely match those of the other intact 3021 unit... that was getting a 10Kpa start and a 34 Kpa end, while this repaired one is coming in at 12Kpa / 34 Kpa, with all those sets of readings within the tolerances given in RJ's chart.



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  18. Zender Z20

    Zender Z20 Paid Member Paid Member

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    Think we may have gotten a step closer to solving this... going to need RJ's help though to double check what I'm thinking, so if he's completely f***ed off with it all by now, we're snookered!

    Amazingly have found something official from GTiE that gives the main specs. for work they did on a 1982 1.6 GTI (EG engine I believe?) that converted it to their RE1850 offering.

    If I've read things correctly the chart below previously from RJ would relate to the factory dizzy for that car?


    82 1600 GTI dizzy spec hi lites.jpg

    I've high lighted what I think are the relevant bits, now cross reference them to the extracts supplied by GTiE...


    RE1850 dizzy spec1.jpg RE1850 dizzy spec2.jpg


    The single difference I can see is the vacuum advance for the standard dizzy ends at 350mm hg / 11-15 degrees whereas GTiE's also ends at 350mm hg but at 4-6 degrees.

    Can someone knowledgable explain what that change would mean / result in, in laymans terms that I'd understand and how they would have attained it?

    Was their 'modification' simply rotating the standard dizzy to adjust the timing?
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2023
  19. rubjonny

    rubjonny Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    tbh your guess is as good as mine :lol:

    the mechanical advance is unchanged so that makes me think they mod the internals for the vacuum advance rather than adjust the distributor position but not like I'm an expert on this kind of thing
     
  20. Zender Z20

    Zender Z20 Paid Member Paid Member

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    Not having a confirmed 'modified' dizzie, just as it left GTiE was always going to trip up any speculation, nothing can be 100% confirmed without one otherwise.

    Does harp back though to what I was thinking at the beginning... the only relatively easy / cheap way to modify things would've been to swap out the vac. canister completely for another existing one with (or close to) the settings you desired.

    In theory if you'd the testing kit and the know how you could probably change an existing canisters settings too, just by varying the max / min travel created by the gap / notch on the canisters arm, but neither of those things appear to have been done on my RE1900 dizzy (nor anything else for that matter).

    Ah well, worth a try... maybe someone'll come along with the answer!
     

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