2L 16v cam choices....

Discussion in '16-valve' started by chrismc, May 17, 2011.

  1. prof Forum Addict

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    ET20 for the flat face ones, 7x15
     
  2. jamesa Forum Junkie

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    Ian

    Engine is not run in as yet, have only done limited miles and 5500rpm max but it is chalk and cheese compared with CFJ in how it feels.

    As with the previous 1800 8v (285`) solid lifter unit it revs soooo much easier. At 5500rpm it`s not in it`s stride but time will tell. Up until now the kjet appears fine but again, we`ll have to see ... am working on a few things ... remember them ;)

    I`m hoping that it`s power band / delivery will well suit the Gemini CR set with it`s ATB 3.67 FD ... the 8v topped out at 105mph but they way it got there was pretty special.

    Enough `off topic` ... another time, soon I hope.
     
  3. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    I turn my back and another page appears in this fact-driven discussion!

    Thanks for checking with Graham, but which 8v 5th ratio/FD? Mk1 1.6, 1.8 /2/3 8v? The devil is in the finer detail if any clarity over differing vMax is to be appreciated.


    I am off for a read through from page one to get 'into the zone'. Then I will attempt to clear the non-response to admonishment with some further unquestionable scientific Golf test data :o

    Stay tuned! [:*:]
     
  4. ianb Forum Member

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    MK2 8V I believe....but it will need confirmation from the man himself.
     
  5. SCOTG New Member

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    Car was on 8 v acd gearbox with quaife and standard ratios 2 to 2.5 degrees neg camber. Just remember mine is a small bumper mk 2 that had it's seats, door mirrors and wipers in the right place that day on crappy 195 45 avon tyres (ended up giving away) although the driver was possibly lighter than some of the other folk!!!! (Sorry Ian) Back then I used to run high negative camber as I didn't have track tyres so it used to prevent the tyre side wall suffering. Car at combe on track rubber actually now ran a better v max in to quarry with only 1 degree of neg. Ratios are still the same now but i'm too tight to buy a gemini f.d so i've used one from a mk 2 diesel box
     
  6. SCOTG New Member

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    whilst I'm on here this discussion is brilliant as there seems to be some very knowledgeable people who are taking a real interest, but for what it is worth when cfj was built it was done as the best bang for bucks conversion at the time (10 years ago) Stand alone and plenums and itb's are obviously the way to go and could be developed even further but with both it needs to be remembered that by ditching k jet you are getting rid of two massive air restrictions which are the flap and the twin throttle body so are the max power gains going to that much better? I've no doubt that the torque spread is far better with some stand alone as k jet and the programmed vw ecu is compromised but all we had was k star for sensible money, again a compromise. Again it cannot be impressed enough that the cam choice is down to individuals requirements and possibly driving style and the 9a is brilliant for torque compared to the kr but what about the 1.9 on k jet/plenum/itbs etc? possibly the best of both worlds?
     
  7. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    I make it that VUC is running 19.95mph / 1,000 rpm in top, compared with CFJ's 20.20 mph / 1,000. The 8v 5th gear (ignoring tyres) would have meant VUC was having to pull a taller gear to achieve vMax, suggesting it might pull a higher speed, whereas the tyres would set it on course for a lower speed. The two are thus very close together, the effect of the tyres just outweighing the 8v.

    Car G/box Tyres Max Speed @ revs
    CFJ 2Y 195/50 15 135.52mph 6,709
    VUC 8v - 89 5 3.667 195/45 15 131.91mph 6,613
    G-LET 3.94 & .91 195/50 15 127.77mph 6,804
    GVK 2Y 195/50 15 131.26mph 6,498

    Tyres have been assumed in this table ref G-LET / GVK.

    This makes sense to a point, potentially justifying CFJ vs VUC. Throw in MKD @ 190bhp / 132.74mph vs VUC @ 131.91 and then it all gets confusing again. Really this is just an illustration of how hard it is to interpret apparently comparable data, let alone bring in the anecdotal contributions which in a discussion like this amount to tittle tattle, hence why I've been at pains to shove aside circuit performance throughout.

    I've still yet to give the thread a re-read, but so many things have been written that I'm going to do that before repeating what's written before!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 17, 2013
  8. chrismc Forum Junkie

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    I agree.

    Many many little variables on the day Chris- camber, track, big or small bumpers, weight, tyre profile, f.d, power/torque, changes in wind speed/direction. Impossible to put differences down to engine power alone & therefore fruitless to get overly hung up with all these finer details without ALL of the variables taken into consideration.

    That is just looking into it too deeply with no concrete conclusions ever possible IMO. 'over analysis'- with no offence intended;)

    Apologies if my references are considered anecdotal but not everyone has a dyno & controlled set of conditions at their disposal. I only told it how I see it. If I am wrong/mistaken/wide of the mark so be it. A clown I am not however;);)

    Couldn't agree more with Grahams last post btw:thumbup:
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2011
  9. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    You were never called a clown on this thread - see thread title/artistic licence of where it happened ;)

    I don't have a set of controlled conditions at my disposal 24/7 either, but we need to acknowledge that those contributing information to CGTI have moved the game on in recent times, and we're reaping the rewards of doing that. If over-analysing doesn't draw conclusions, it's better to have tried and draw a line, than not. The flipside is we get into detail - see the BTCC thread for a thoroughly detaillled investigation in to a 305 bhp ACE 16v - and some don't want to/aren't used to the level of scrutiny: fair enough.

    Above on this thread matt d floated a comparison with Integra DC2s, cue additional info about one doing 1m 16s at Castle Combe, described as "mildly modified", anecdotal info to show relative ease of performance. I know this car, I saw it do those times, it was mint through Camp, hovvering over the apex and clearly very quick. I also know that it wasn't remotely standard, so I've since compared notes with Maurice Reeves, because he knew the owner from the past, cue the following: "It had everything done to it", "Mardi Gras", "Bored out engine", "highly modified", "lots of work to the suspension", "several LSDs".

    The dangers of anecdotal information, firmly illustrated.
     
  10. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    As promised....

    During the course of an 18-stage testing process, antiquated equipment was noted to repeated give poor part throttle control, yielding poor results in terms of power and expected peaks.

    Considerable time was spent analysing the data gained:

    [​IMG]

    Complete revisions to the approach and equipment were thus made.

    Once Standalone control was gained, ramp angles were then altered, and the results speak for themselves.





























    [​IMG]

    Fine tuning continues [:o)]
     
  11. danster Forum Addict

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    [:-B] Another point of view could be seen that over analysing specifications and data on paper, is wasting ones life away for marginal, if any real gains that are applicable to the real world.
    Actual lap times I suppose mean more in the real world than small percentage improvements in the operation of an engine. There are far more factors than engine tuning alone that will lead to reduced lap times.
    You may have the most powerful and optimised engine in the world........but if you can't set the car up or drive properly it does not mean much.

    I feel a new thread should be started, naming and shaming anyone that has been humped by a less powerful car. :lol:
     
  12. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    Ah ha, but the OP has stated that fast road use is part of the use of the car, in which case lap time scrutiny is wasting ones life away over analysing!

    The problem with this is what defines a less powerful car?

    Multiple testing of a vehicle at several locations, or strict adherence to a favoured dyno & a self-marketing department? It's all a bit Loeb-staying-at-Citroen for me! :lol: :lol:

    Bring on these 180bhp+ K-Jet valvers! I'm told they exist! Well, grow on trees is what the past would have you believe! [:s]
     
  13. Admin Guest

    I think Danster means any 8v beating a 16v :lol: which many people will need to named. Who's racing anyway?
     
  14. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    Ah, in that case you have to include a forfeit for staying at home.

    Danster, 2010, Kames!
     
  15. danster Forum Addict

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    Ah ha, Fast road use you say. Then why not install a gearbox that does 60 in 2nd. That should be fine for fast road use up to the legal speed limit on the country roads around the GB. Just think of the weight saving too. :o

    Good point on Loeb. He is an amazing driver and I am sure he could whip many a more powerful car in a lesser machine. Probably even with less valves and the odd cam missing too. :lol:
    Which just makes the point that ability is probably the biggest factor in the equation, be it on track or on the road.

    Tumbleweed in the gearbox thread still I see. ;)
     
  16. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    I think this belongs in another transmission thread! Shall I move it? :lol:

    Au contraire! Point missed on Loeb [:x]

    Allow me to use a scientific analogy:

    [​IMG]
    The big Kangaroo is the PSA Peugeot Citron group. There's young Seb, happy and comfortable - and unwilling to risk reputation elsewhere, even when EUR 12m is wafted past his nose by VW ;)
     
  17. jamesa Forum Junkie

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    My standard Mk2 16v would do an indicated > 60 in second post the 40k mile point !
     
  18. danster Forum Addict

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    Thread cleaner required.

    Point not missed. Just Loeb brought to the conversation. :thumbup:
    So you want Loeb to do a Rossi then? IE Rossi moved to Yamaha from the security of Honda.

    It could also be said that VW are trying to get the best driver to make up for any lack of competitive nature in their car. IE trying to buy out the competition. ;)
     
  19. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    * Loeb analogy reading in too deeply alert :lol: *

    Mayday, mayday!
     
  20. Admin Guest

    Talk the talk walk the walk, the transmission section is your domain is it not Danster? Let's have your input on that thread. :thumbup::lol:
     

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