Greetings from an Audi 90 20v owner

Hi folks. Hope you all had a good Christmas.

Thought I'd say hi as I'm a newbie.
VWs and Audis have been in the family for years. I own two cars, both of which I've owned long-term.

1) 2003 VW mk4 Golf V5
2) 1991 Audi 90 20v

A bit more about the Audi, which I think is far more interesting (!) and an understated, forgotten gem...

Although first registered in 1991, it was manufactured early 1990 so came with the factory fitted stainless steel tubular exhaust manifold. Bonkers.

I bought the car back in 2000 and will never let this one go! She was off the road for some years. Started feeling a few issues and became a bit unreliable (didn't know how to fix some issues) so got the Golf as cheap substitute. This year, due to available time and the realisation that this car is way too good to let deteriorate further, I rolled up my sleeves, got the manuals + tools out and with brilliant advice from the good people at the Classic Audi forums, I eventually got the car back on the road. What a feeling!

Externally, it's cosmetically tatty (and that's something I hope to address eventually) but I've been concentrating on getting it MOT'd, feeling nice to drive, use and live with.

Anyway, while Googling for info on the car, I noticed a few postings originating here so thought I'd sign up and say hello. Best wishes,

James

 

Flipping heck James.
Nice to see you on here!

Without doubt the 90 Q 20V is the very best car VAG ever built.
Performance Car magazine tested a used one, back in the day, and stated: If Porsche made a 4 door car this would be it!
It could even be the 4th best car ever built after the SAAB 96, the SAAB 99 and the Porsche 911.

The big problem is that it has 4 doors. OK. it is actually lighter, stiffer and has better rear suspension than the 90 20v Coupe, but if it was a 2 door it would be even lighter and stiffer. Also they stupidly fitted 4 bolt wheels when they should have fitted 5 bolts.

You are lucky to find one with the tubular exhaust! My car had the cast exhaust, which cracks, as mine has! But i managed to fine a tubular exhaust.
The ones with a tubular exhaust develop more power. Although some one on here told me that all 90Q 20Vs are 170 ps.

I have converted to 5 stud hubs for the 16 x 8 BBS RGs from a V8.
I have stripped out the car and, intend to weld up the rear doors, and fit only 2 Recaro Sport seats and no other trim.
I have also changed the early front lower wishbones for the later stronger units.

Now. My 90Q 20V has been off the road for years due an idiot smashing into the front passenger door. I was forced off the road and damaged the sump, front wishbones and front wheels. The 'B' pillar was also bent. The insurance company would not re-build it because the sump was £1000, the wishbones were £500 each and the wheels £400 each! Plus, with the 'B' pillar bent, they said it could not be straitened. I have had it jigged up to perfection.

So. Because of all of the other things I have had to do, in the last 20 years, I have not touched it. But, if Tristan buys all of my VW stuff and tools, I might get my act into gear and do something about it!

Without doubt the 90Q 20V is a brilliant car. I once destroyed the inside front wheel by hitting a rock in the grass verge. I had no trouble getting round the next bend and stopped to change the wheel. I was only late to work by 15 minutes or so.

Kindest regards,
Dave.

 

James.

I like your taste.
Elaine has a Mk4. It is a 25J with a ported and polished cylinder head. About 210 PS.
I also have a 1986 GTI Lightweight.

Dave

 

I do quite like these and the 80 sport. I guess you have the fake split rims? I like those too!
Maybe one day I'll have one.

 

Don't be daft Andy!
RHD 80 Sports had 4 doors! The Germans had 2 door GTEs.
Instead of building the UR Quattro they should have just put the Q system in to the 80 GTE.
Lighter and stiffer, and better looking than the Coupe, with a more upright windscreen. The S1 had an upright 80 windscreen!
The 90 Q 20V did have the stupid Ronal imitation split rims. Sad what? They should have at least fitted Ronal R8s like the GTE. Check what I stated about the insurance company. They said the stupid split rims were £400 each.
No! They should have fitted 5 bolt hubs and the V8 16x8 BBS RGs. RGs are forged Magnesium alloy.
In fact they should have fitted the optional 17x8 RGs.
Try to find some 17x8 - 5x112 RGs! Talk about hen's teeth.16x8 seem to be valued at £2000 on eBay.
Dave.

 

Thank you all for the warm welcome!

The fake split rims were a factory option (standard on Sport models) and were made by Speedline. If they were made by Ronal, they probably wouldn't have suffered the horrific corrosion they do! I think Audi must have spent a fortune on warranty claims for these wheels.

The Speedlines are indeed 4x108. Two options:

Speedline SL359 7Jx15 H2 ET45 - B3 80/90 fitment
Speedline SL423 7Jx15 H2 ET37 - B3 Coupe fitment

I always liked the look of them on the car more than the Ronal Aero, but I do agree the Ronal R8s would be nice and the BBS RGs

Dave, why do you prefer the 5x112 pattern? To handle any extra power and expand your wheel options? What were the later wishbones? My understanding is that the Euro 90 20vs all had the cast front wishbones (mine does), bigger bushings and bigger, stepped front wheel bearings. I know Audi chopped about on the S2 with the wishbones, swinging between pressed and cast throughout manufacture.

My 90 20v is the fwd model. I remember test driving a 90 quattro 20v but with the extra 10% weight (+120kg - 1200kg v 1320kg), acceleration felt blunted somewhat. quattro version also has got lower ratio gears for 1st and 2nd. I guess the extra weight doesn't matter if the car is modified or the road conditions are poor and favour the quattro, but in the dry the fwd 20v is an eager thing and handles very well - would love a quattro too, mind, especially if running more than 200hp.

Audi claimed all European 7A engines put out 170hp. Audi say they maintained 170hp on later models (the ones with the cast manifolds, manufactured March 1990 onwards) by changing the ECU and map. I'm a bit skeptical of that! Seems like excuses for saving on exhaust manifold costs. If the ECU tune was that easy, why didn't they do that in the first place? Their main rival the BMW E36 325i had 171hp. Surely they would have loved to pip it, bit to be 1hp short seems strange. Or perhaps they didn't want to go (or claim) any higher what with their incoming, new (customer-pandering!) 174hp 2.8 V6 engine, which in the B4 80 wasn't as quick or as exciting an engine.

Dave, I hope you're able to get your project 90q 20v work done. Sounds like a cracker! Sorry to hear that it was taken out. You got a lot left to do?

Andy, if you'd like a 90 20v, there aren't many about any more but worth keeping your eyes peeled. A few years ago they were dirt cheap - about £400 seemed typical! Imagine they're a couple of grand now. Extremely tough engine, superb design and build, very reliable, responds well to tlc and not expensive to run/repair especially if you're comfortable/handy with a spanner. Still a quick, capable and comfortable car and totally incognito! Can't remember the last time I saw one for sale though. They didn't sell many (pretty expensive and only a 2 year production run). I think a lot must have been scrapped or broken in the last 10 years. The front twin pot Girling G60 brake calipers fitted as standard to the 20vs make a popular brake upgrade on the older Golfs.

Dave, I love the sound of that Performance Car magazine review. Do you know which issue that was in? Don't think I've read many positive journalist reviews about the car. Seemed underappreciated at the time and now totally forgotten... although the owners love(d) them!

Best wishes,

James

 

https://www.clubgti.com/forums/index.php?threads/audi-kicks-bmw-ass.214719/

https://www.clubgti.com/forums/index.php?threads/audi-90-quattros.227628/page-3#post-2123368

 

Thank you kindly, Dave

I never knew about the different grade of forged wishbones.

The BBS RGs are something special. Thanks for drawing my attention to them... I just wish I could afford them! Totally worth it, I'm sure, for the looks, strength and weight saving. The 16x8 ET35 V8 wheels would be nice. Are you aware of any sets that are closer to ET45 - not sure how much the scrub radius could/should be varied?

While I was down the wheels rabbit hole, I noticed later style BBS RCs which are light for their size and somewhat more affordable. 17x7.5 ET43. Not sure I'd want to run 17s again though, although 16s might be a good compromise and open up the tyre options. I like my comfort these days!

That 325hp Audi 90 quattro is lovely.
Do you think the later Bosch ECU fitted to the 7A is better (greater tuning potential) ?

Best wishes,

James

 

Sorry Andy.
Did you mean the B2 80 Sport? I replied thinking the B2 80 was the model.
If you meant the B3, then, of course, there were no 2 door cars. Worst luck!!
Of course, there is always the 80 Competition to look for!
Dave.

 

James.
I shall do some hunting around for all I have on the 90 Q.
I shall then photograph it and post on your thread here.
Regards,
Dave.

 

Brilliant. I also have some material to share and will post up in due course

 

Just to answer an earlier question. I switched to 5x112 so as to have a better choice of wheels, especially the RGs.
I intended to fit adjustable upper mounts for the coil-over shocks. Shame Sachs Race Engineering did not make them. The only ones I could find were these:



BTW. Elaine's Mk4 25J is fitted with Sachs coil overs set at half adjustment. Even in our mid 70s we don't find them too hard except for over speed bumps.

I spent some time today searching the house for AUDI 90 20V stuff without any luck.
I know there is a cardboard box in the barn with catalogues, etc.. Hopefully the 90 stuff is in there!?
One of the items I want to find is an article from The Audi Magazine about tuning the 20V. IIRC the guy was converting to CSI so as to fit higher flow injectors. My Idea was to fit 4 more MPI injectors! Again, IIRC, he stated that the early ECUs were more adaptable.





So:
The NM 2.0L engine gave 80 ps per litre compared with 74 ps on the 7A.
The 266 D gave 74 ps with a cast exhaust.

Now:
Which is the best way to go?
Replace the 266 BA with a 266 or a 266 D?
It would stand to reason that 266 or the 266 D would give more power!

If the earlier ECUs are more adaptable, perhaps the 266 is better?

Regards,
Dave.

 

I was actually relying to James' original post .

I do like the B3 best with the fake split rims. Never driven or been in one.
After reading the post I had a scan on ebay, like you do, there was a cheap low miles auzzie import 90 (apparently with aircon!) nice, and a b2 80 sport, I remember liking those too. But then there is the early S3, 190E and others I like too !

 

I am very lucky. My 90 Q 20V does not have any of the rubbish fitted to it.
No air-con, no sunroof, electric windows front only, and the basic interior with no 'Quattro' on the cloth.
I hate the door mirrors! I have fitted an Audi 50 door mirror. Much better!

I am enthused to re-build mine by this thread.



15" Audi 100 steel wheels. They look better than the Speedline 'splits'!

 

This is what I would like to do!
Using S2 doors. I'd move the B pillar back and fit fixed perspex side windows all round.

 

Hi Dave,

Great food for thought!

Don't do yourself in looking for the 20v treasure. I'm sure it'll turn up

I hear good things about the KW coil-overs. One for the wishlist, methinks. Have you got the ones that allow adjustment of ride height and damping?

For now, I'm running the standard 90 20v Sport suspension setup, Boge shocks and Sachs springs. Mines not a Sport but I needed to refresh the suspension 12+ years ago so I specced up the Sport suspension, replacing every component in the strut assembly. It's old but not done many miles so hopefully will last a bit longer. Before that, I was running Bilstein & Eibachs, 35mm drop instead of the standard 15 (or 20?) mm drop. On 17" wheels the car looked purposeful and the handling was amazing but it was way too firm for my tastes... even when I was a bit younger!

I recall an Audi Driver article about the Bosch injector mod, initially developed by Patrick Carlier. Not sure if that's the one you're thinking of. I understand the idea was marketed by 034 Motorsport. Patrick also developed a chip but only for the early 266 BA ECU configuration and iirc claimed 185-ish HP. The owner in the article was running a 7A in a B2 Coupe, I think. I'll dig it out, got a copy here to-hand

In the back of my mind, I seem to remember Superchips & BBR claiming 189 hp back in the day with their chips and - maybe I'm making this up (!) but - a higher power output for chips for the 2 pin 266 BA ECU. Perhaps the early ECU had more 'in hand'. After losing the bag of snakes, perhaps Audi had to extract more from the ECU leaving little headroom? I'd love to know the full story.

Regarding the 2.0L 20v NM... I thought it didn't have a cat. I might have that wrong, would need to check but I do know that the NM's tubular exhaust manifold does not have a thread for lambda probe attachment. Maybe it went somewhere else, or was omitted. The NM also had a different camshaft arrangement. Not sure if it was both intake and exhaust cams, or just one, but there's definitely a unique cam setup.

Would be great to nudge 200hp in the old girl without compromising driveability or reliability. That's a reasonable power-to-weight ratio as the car weighs in at 1200kg, or less. I'm saving a few kgs by a) having a poverty spec. I realised mine doesn't even have procon-ten! and b) having a non-standard exhaust without the cat. That original centre box weighed a ton!

That'd be quick enough for me...

 

Glad to hear you're feeling motivated. I couldn't even look at mine for years. I felt guilty leaving her standing to rot. Something renewed my interest earlier in 2022 and I was off! I found the car met me halfway with a leaf of issues... as if it wanted to be recommissioned. Crazy, I know!

Is yours the same colour as mine? Glacier Blue Metallic L5YU. Looks slightly different.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the steelies v Speedlines I love a sunroof - any excuse and it's open! I'm willing to sacrifice rigidity and have some extra weight for that. I guess if it fails catastrophically I could weld it shut! I must say, although I tend to prefer keeping 90+% of the car standard (James May style 'return to stock'), I do love the sound of your two door shorty plan with a tastefully engineered motorsport edge. I hope you can make it happen - you must!

 

That reminds me of the short wheel base Quattro. How much did you slice out of the middle ?

 

Oh, you must give one a go! The 5 cyl makes it for me although the rest of the package is solid.

I saw that Australian import one. Something seems off about that to me. I don't mean to offend the seller as it might be innocent but it's the 2.3E 10v NG engine yet has a 120mph speedo. My uncle's Coupe with the same engine has 160mph max on the clock, which is correct. I could be wrong and perhaps the late 90 2.3E had that speedo from the factory but I'd be cautious. There also looks like driver seat bolster wear on a car with under 30,000 miles... My 90 20v has the velour seats too. They're incredibly hard wearing. At nearly 210,000 miles on the clock, there's no wear like that, just a couple of historical fag burns from when I smoked!

All 90s are nice but the 20v is something quite lovely. So understated. I think people got confused by them. It lacked a standout look, a visual that would stick. Audi started off in '88 with a good looking package (basically the 90q 20v Sport) but the price was high. They later revised the options / equipment to reduce the prices, introduced the fwd variant but in doing so diluted the image - so some 20vs came spoilerless, some on wheels that other 80s and 90s had and with just an 'Audi 90' badge, and '20v' + 'quattro' on the back they just seemed mysterious and didn't stand out. Wtf is 20v anyway, I bet people thought. Oh, is that a 2.0L? I've had people ask me that.

I guess Audi didn't quite have the reputation back then - not the same as BMW or Mercedes road cars. Perhaps for the same money customers thought "Oh, I can have a 2.5L, 6 cyl etc. from the other Deutsche marques'.

Why Audi weren't shouting from the rooftops about it I don't know. Maybe they were, but it's not the impression I get.

'Hey customers, our alternative to the 325i has real Motorsport DNA; 7k redline, stainless steel equal length tubular exhaust manifold (I mean, who else was doing that from the factory?!), front twin-pot calipers, aluminium rear spoiler, 4 valve per cylinder aluminium head, sodium valves, ABS kill switch, Nardi steering wheel..." yada yada. So many good bits on it - forged wishbones, alloy sump, advanced (for the time) fuel injection system & engine management, uprated suspension...

Anyway, from what I can tell Audi just didn't market it well. Or they had another plan with it that was scrapped.

Sorry for the ramble

 

Crikey James what a lot of great information! I shall not try to answer it all but just stick down some basic comments.

First Andy.
I took around 150mm out of the body. I even contacted the company converting UR Quattros to short-wheelbase S1 form. (Can't remember the company's name now) They said they had no experience of B3s so could not help. Mind you how easy is it to take 150mm out of a carbon prop-shaft, if I could afford one!?

I don't know KW. I only trust SACHS, and all the others in the ZF group! But, if KW is all there is, they would have to do.

I knew that in some markets, mainly Eastern Europe, cats were not fitted. I just checked what you stated regarding the NM. The ETKA pages are misleading as they only shows images of catalysts but, now I have checked down the page, only front silencer is stated for the NM.
You state that the middle silencer is heavy, but the rear one is uber heavy. I remember lying on my back trying to hold one up while I fitted the rubbers.
The tubular manifold I bought has the flange cut off. I intended to have a bespoke exhaust made by Mulmuf whose factory is only 5km down the road with smaller silencers and no cat.


Marina Blue Metallic! I hate it. Better white or mid grey!

The alloy sump is magnesium alloy. It has such a high magnesium content that when I cracked mine the guy in Sheffield, who repairs Ferrari mag-alloy wheels, could not repair it. All of the alloy water flanges, etc., are also mag-alloy. I checked using Archimedes Principle.

The first BMW M3 was based on the E30 3 Series and was intended to be a homologation special to satisfy the Deutsche Tourenwagen Meisterschaft and Group A Touring rules. As was the Mercedes 190E and the Audi 90 20V Q. Hence the use of a tubular manifold, mag-alloys and stronger crank and con-rods than the turbos. Audi did not have a 2.5L motor available unlike BMW and Mercedes. But thay did have a dry-sump 25V. I have posted images on CGTI showing the 25V motor but I can't find them!
Audi management changed from an Engineer in charge to an accountant and he had the DTM programme scrapped.
Just imaging the 90 25V Qs thrashing everything, just like the V8 Qs did.

I hate those front brakes ! Too bloody heavy. You would have thought that a car of that price would have been fitted with decent AP 4 pot calipers!?

My car, as I noted above, is the ultimate in poverty spec. It did not have a rear spoiler. When the back end started floating about around 110 mph I realised I should fit one. I visited my local dealer, who knew me really well as they were also SAAB dealers, and I had been buying from them since 1970. They knew I was a nutter as I used to buy the SAAB competition parts from them. They suggested I fit the AUDI accessory spoiler as it was cheaper but, more importantly, was lighter.

You are correct the article was Patrick Calier's.



This is the steering wheel I intend to fit. SAAB competition for the 99. Made by MOMO. Love the crash pad!

Somewhere I have a pressed steel sump baffle that fits between block and sump. I can't find it at present as both the barn and bike shed are a mess. It was a standard part on some 5 cylinders.

I hate the front lower bumper. It should have been a continuous line from side to side. Those cut aways at each end look naff to me!

I hate the rectangular headlights. Besides being rubbish compared, with round headlights, they look crap.