Hi All, I know this may have been discussed before but its scattered everywhere i haven't found a post with just the engines and specs in detail. Looking to build a near to 300bhp N/A ABF 16v engine, but wondered if anyone has got close to this before and how. I am building my own spec 16v head, and pistons. I've even looked at doing a 20v head design on a 16v bottom end. I'm sure i saw a while back a 247bhp mk1 golf gti with a high specification ABF engine. So looking for any information that can help, I know BHP is just a number, but i will be building this as a trial to see how hard it is and if anyone has got near to 300bhp out of an ABF 16v engine. Please list your specs of links below please. I have seen adverts of the old oettinger 16v head, and thought about making my own design similar. any help will be most useful
You have a big budget? You'll need one. Fancy fuel would be a nice to have, everything 'steel' (proper steel, not Chinese steel), safe at 9000rpm, loads compression, best pistons and comb chamber shape, biggest race valves you can get into the head, optimal cams, minimal induction and exhaust pressure losses, lots of dyno time, even more mods chasing gradual gains. Or employ a pro builder who has done it before.... 200hp is relatively cheap, law of diminishing returns applies above this. Best trick is to get a mega torque curve with a decent top end power figure, then you'll fly, and still have some money left for proper tyres and brakes All IMHO (with some experience also....) Jon
I have no idea but sounds fun! What specs are you thinking of doing? Compression will have to be right up there wouldn't it?
Put simply, you will not without everything being custom Any NA 2 litre pushing through 280 is getting into very rare air, that is where even professionals start to get really serious with the R+D. and hence expensive. Ever noticed how most 2 litre professional formula now cap power that around this figure, because they can do this cheap and reliable, but then costs start to square for every extra 5! Cheapest way is to buy an old Super touring motor, swap out the bits they change out as service items (like rings...) for more durable items (still custom) and add revs over their 8500 limit, probably more than Jon's 9000 though And I have seen a lot of "300+hp" NA's on the engine dyno, all brands... most of which were Supertouring and most of which only got 280-290 despite being reported as 320... I know there are variations in dyno's, but engine dyno's are a lot closer to each other and realistic. Most of the "big" numbers peopel report are corrected from a wheel figure, which means they are just crap
http://www.clubgti.com/showthread.php?156719-Oettinger-Graf-KR-and-ABF-heads-How-much-do-they-flow http://www.clubgti.com/showthread.php?267690-Technical-Engine-Performance-Discussions-Index A place to start , lm looking to get 200bhp from a KR based 2.0 ltr engine with VWMS parts and that'll be difficult on my moderate budget .
What is the planned purpose of the engine ? A high end race engine as Supertouring .... most were on 1000 -2000 km rebuild intervals.... with lots parts replaced as valves , valvesprings, valveseats need reconditioned, cams every 7000 - 8000 km, bearings, etc, etc the STW engines under free rules....shift at ca 9000 rpm , with an absolute redline at 9400 rpm The times are gone you can pick these engines at ``reasonable `` prices as they really become scarse apart source the correct spares is not a matter of just order it, ... as there is no shop really ..... Realistic as a 2.0L ? i tend to say ca 260 Ps ( as early KC spec) ....on not to exotic engine internals and.... if you know what you`re doing ... even`` Pro`s`` needed quite some engine builds to reach that level..... Above that point... it need very deep pockets, exotic parts , huge resources... dyno time and going trough lots different specs... all on decent race fuel, proper electronics with knock control....
You'd probably build an FSI into a car with more bhp, cheaper than a 270 bhp abf, wouldn't you think Hugo?
Yes the FSI is basically an engine with some lessons learnt from the STW engines applied into a road engine.... Cyl head flow is so much better already Its the better base to start from , certainly for this kind of powerlevels
What is the engine for really? By the way 300bhp EA827 16v high maintenance racing engines have been created with near 300 bhp, but be prepared to hand over 50k Euros.
300hp? not a chance. there arnt very many 250hp vag 16vs non pro built engines. 280hp duratec, starting price 15K. 300-320hp, 20-25K.
For a first build even with quite abit experience... there are a couple barriers to take.... amongst enthusiastst 200 - 210 hp ...is a pretty decent job Those with more on there sleeve can do...230 - 240 hp ....altough not that simple , as its the next barrier..... while 250+ engines are nearly all built by a Pro...
In the early days when the 16V 1800 engine was used in a Mk2 under grA rules power was ca 190- 200 hp ( iirc) ... and 240 -250 hp was considered as impossible..... it took years before 255 - 260 hp (2.0L) was reached by pro engine builders ..... and going towards 270 - 280 hp was also a proces of years....
From looking at the linked website in Ally's profile and his posts wanting various heads , it appears Ally works in a tuning shop race and road with its own machining shop . So he's got great facilities available to him ? But even with the latest cutting edge technology he'll need knowledge/ experience to push boundaries. What's worked on Jap cars won't necessarily work on old VAG heads. Ally you need to share your goals in more detail so the clubs resident experts can give you more advice . But it's pretty clear from HPR that what you're aiming for is right at the boundaries of well experienced long time professional VAG race engine builders can achieve, hence the comments about cost and difficulty of your aims. Sometimes it takes "out of the box approach " to get new advances , but these often take lots of time and money . Turbos do what you're aiming for very cheaply and easily, that's why the majority of people use them. Nige has spent many years tuning his Golf from Kjet to throttle bodies to a 16v turbo that's had many hours of mapping to make it respond like a normally aspirated engine . He gets well above what you're aiming for from a standard ABF block,head and internals except for uprated rods and fasteners ??
VW engines are hard to squeze serious power out.... several pro engine builders said that... when they compared to Opel XE, BMW`s , Ford`s .... those are easy
Having worked on many JDMs it is the same principle if you know what you are doing. Easier on JDM stuff. It takes years for the top tier engine builders to understand their craft. It is nice when some of those experts share little snippets of their trade secrets with us. Being a bit real, no one will tell you for free how to build a 300bhp EA827 ABF/ACE/AAL/9A/6A motor! Nige is one example of 16v powertrain evolution. His car is a package that allows him to improve his driving craft and the engine and it's response is a part of the equation. The same with Gurdip, Rambow, Sparrow all running 16vTs with well over 300bhp as a number but with up to 260-300 lbft, something not possible with a 2.0 NASP engine All these examples have justified reasons which is reflective in their powertrains. A 300 bhp VW NASP engine will consist of many exotic and one off parts beyond the scope of most. But you never know if that is what is required by the OP.
Hi guys, Thanks for your responses. I've had a 330bhp 16vt and loved it but fancied building a n/a machine. I've had loads of abf engines before but only ever played with one and it was only cylinder head modifications. I used a superflow cylinder head machine and did my own gas flowing and porting. Managed to get 175 bhp out if it, on the stealth rollers 9 years ago. But this is not to build a touring car engine, but something which anyone within reason with some engine building skills could put together. I've seen the posts of the audi 80 16v touring car engine and it would be nice to do something like that but not all of us have big pockets for one of those. I'm not looking to do any fancy stuff to it yet. But by your comments I'm going to be lucky if I can push past the 260bhp before having to deck the head, block, race fuel and alot more work. So this post was to give me an idea of what bolt on's and alittle work, forged pistons could give. I.e what's the most you can get from off the shelve parts before it becomes custom work.? And Sirguydo, I do have a few facilities to hand which helps if I need them, but hoping not to use them in this case. Another reason for the build is I see lots of 20vt builds and they are good but the thrill of having one isn't as good as it used to be because there are so many vw's converted now to them. But that's just my opinion, don't anyone take that to heart. I would still have one aswell of I could afford it too. If anyone has any info on the 16v oettinger head that may interest me, as seen that the valves are almost sat at 45 degrees on inlet and exhaust where a standard 16v head is 90 exhaust and 45 on inlet for example. And looking at the exhaust side it is very restricted, and small ports. Regards Ally Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
The original Oettinger head was a work of art and great design BUT wasn't practical to build in large numbers so Oettinger stopped making them when Volkswagen made the KR 16v head . They just modified the VW ones instead ( it's this engine I've got in its , missing the original valves and cams )
Always interesting contemplating engines and their development but my advice if you are serious about power, rather than a parts list, would be that the engine needs to be built around the cylinder head (ports, chamber and cams). Everything else is simply developed around them to suit. If you spend the money on buying a decent head and matching cam set, then the engine will make somewhere around the designed power. Don't just stuff a dremel up the ports and the make them shiny and expect it to make power, you need a flow bench and a lot of experience to build a decent head - spend the money here. Tell the head man what power you want and he will tell you what cams to use, induction sizes, inlet tract length, exhaust manifold dimensions and design etc., etc. The head will dictate the valve size, induction and the cams will dictate the valve gear and exhaust. The bottom end; compression and components etc., will be dictated by both the head and cams. That said, the bore and stroke should be considered before anything, as its dictates the engines characteristics. The best compromise for an ABF is a 90mm stroke with an 84mm bore. The intended use for the car and its position in the chassis will dictate wet or dry sump. My advise is find a good head man and start there, my personal recommendation would be Jason at JMR as he will spend the time on developing a custom heads to suit your intended use, not just a generic head - but be warned he's not quick! What ever, spend the money on the head and cams, but be clear what you want to achieve before the outset as the level of power will dictate what parts to use, everything changes as the power levels change.
