Any details what off shelf parts were used? looking to home build a high Rev high power track day ABF myself
You won't get there I'm afraid. Aim more to 230-250 and you stand a chance, budget is still very high with all new parts. For a track day engine 210-220 is more realistic.
I would not even bother targeting bhp. It is a nonsense from a powertrain and calibration strategy perspective. Sounds great to end user though. OEs still use that term to appeal to buyers who have no clue!
Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races. I also hoped to get more out of my 9A engine as the 195 hp it has, but that would require a lot more expensive work on the head.
If you read the thread from the beginning you can see several of us who are still here on the forum questioned the "off the shelf" comment. In hindsight from experience of powertrain, it is damn difficult to get the levels of cylinder fill sustained through such an old non cylinder head design. Very experienced EU engine builders have achieved those feats when money was no object for racers in E2000 series. But those types of engines are not road engines and usually with a high maintenance regime and mostly lots of secrets. You can build a good track day engine or do consider other engines good at cylinder fill, at lower engine speeds conducive to reasonable maintenance. To build a powerful engine, it is best to work with an experienced engineering shop and if you want to get involved, you can assemble the components pre preped by the engineering shop at your home. You yourself need to do your own benchmarking to know what components will result in the vehicle acceleration you are after for a trackday car. It is not about targeting a peak power.
195 bhp @ what engine speed? 7000, 8000 or 9000 rpm? The number quantity is not an absolute and as little correlation to vehicle drive character.
I would happy with 230-250 I’m just wondering what the magic combo of parts is. yeah I don’t need race winning spec. I’m thinking; “man in the shed” ported & flowed head Uprated springs & cam Higher comp pistons Stand-alone ECU for EFI Cool on plug Individual Throttle body kit tubular exhaust manifold What can these reliably Rev to with properly built bottom and top end but still maintaining low rebuild intervals? 8000? 9000?
The magic combo of parts, are based on the experience of the tuner/engine builder you choose. You do not want a race winning engine but measure your expectations in terms of 230 to 250bhp, which is the sort dyno'd peak power assciated on race winning engines...LOL I take it you have done trackdays before and are very progressive on track?
I want to build it myself so I'm looking for what parts people have got the best power out of. I didn't know 250 was top tier, that's just a manifold, exhaust, filter and a remap with a K20 haha Yes I'm fairly brisk on track. Lot of track days and have previously competed in faster cars. Finding my 160bhp 1.8 16V KR super fun but lacking power on track. It's a rebuilt engine but I'm not sure what was done. Externally I think a 2.0 inlet manifold, cut off bottom air box and a tubular manifold. Internally I think at least an uprated cam as it pulls to peak power at 7000rpm. Whether the head was done or it's got high comp pistons or anything I don't know, presume not with only 160bhp? Was really hoping a much hotter worked 2.0 revving to 8000 or maybe 9000? would crack the 250bhp mark to keep me properly entertained.
Are you talking 160 bhp or hp? A KR has 139 hp and a peak of 7000 rpm originally. To get that power out of a KR with only manifolds and a "cut off airbox" (what does it even mean?) it sounds like 160 hp is more a dream than reality. To get 250bhp out of an NA engine you'll have to seriously modify the engine - with extensive costs.
Couldn't agree more daNpy, my original engine only produced 180 bhp at the wheels and that was £5k+ over 20 years ago. The rebuild with a tad more power (just over 6 years ago) was another £5k+. So if you are starting from scratch now expect a bill of £12k+ especially if you are looking for 250 bhp. Thankfully mine is still going strong and is entertaining, don't think I could stand another upgrade (well the wallet wouldn't).
Pingman, I sort of get you want a faster car. But the horsepower targeting plucked without engineering consideration from random dynos is painful to see from most folk wanting a fast car. Especially when the engine is not operated at one engine speed like a generator, and there is quite a bit of testing shared on this group from myself and others, regarding 16v characteristics. But let me try to make it easier to understand. So let us make a wild assumption your "160bhp" 16v's physics was captured properly up to 7000 rpm. Let us also establish, torque is what actually accelerates and retards the engine/vehicle via the tyre contact patch as a force. We must extract torque from this number. Your torque at peak power is 120lbft. Patterns I have seen over the years with 16v engines, albeit on my own testing shows torque at peak power is 5 to 10% lower than the maximum torque. I will put that maximum at 6000 to 6500 rpm which means 132 lbft at 6000-6500 rpm. So you have a peaky engine that needs revs to keep on the move. Where did you test your 1.8 16v and what was the actual full load plot for torque and power? I have tuned and tested many 16v engines as well as those from the MK2 championship. All of them have a consistent characteristic which can be read differently from dyno center to dyno center. Now enter the ABF engine. Many tests on this forum have been done and shared. Dyno differences aside, let us wildly assume the peak torque calculated from your 1.8 16v engine is a similar quantity to what we have seen in this group, a standard but tuned ABF engine will achieve 160 lbft from 4000 to 5000 rpm and by 7300 rpm will still achieve 110 lbft. 3500 rpm will be at 150lbft. There are threads documenting that at Garage Streamline. As torque is directly proportional to vehicle acceleration, what I am attempting to show is how much stronger a standard engine with tuning will be than your tuned 1.8 KR engine. Then we can shift that maximum torque range 1000 rpm, with a tuned exhaust, OE or aftermarket, then headwork to remove shrouding, seat and throat work, before added cams, valve springs exhaust valves, or open induction. The exact spec is not for me to list. You will have to pay someone for the knowledge to combine components and specialist machine work from the general insight I attempted to highlight. With compression increased, you can achieve 175lbft @ 5000 to 6500 rpm and still 165lbft at 7500 rpm (235bhp) with 120 lbft still left by 8000 rpm. These predictions are affected by the accuracy of your 160bhp engine comments. You simply cannot target a number and ignore the engines physics. I am able to do this from lots of testing and experience. What I painted is an engine with much more torque than your current engine and one that WILL be faster on the same gearbox if it will survive the excess torque. The VW 16v EA827 is a turd when compared to true pentroof 16v engines from other OEs. Of course better than the 8v for top end cylinder fill but still lacking as a 16v. So yes a standard 2.0 K20Z3 with 11.3 CR from the EDM Civic R will develop 200bhp@8000rpm and just about 139lbft from 6000 to 7000 rpm. But it has modern injection and Vtec actuation on both exhaust and intake cams to enhance cylinder fill and its rpm range. Tuning them see a rise in torque to say 150lbft for a range when in Vtec and thus the naturally power will increase mathematically. From where I sit in powertrain, I struggle with the peak power jargon spoken by well intentioned folks throughout motorsport. I am used to homologated specifications that have tolerances with airflow, torque , cylinder pressure, back pressure, temperatures and intake pressure drops. Power is generally referenced for marketing purposes. So I wish you luck in going faster and hope what I wrote makes sense.
Yeah, I know it. My 9A has said goodbye to it's axial bearings so I'm on the market to replace the lower block with pistons and crankshaft. They are really hard to find from a reliable source (looking in NL, DE and BE) but I'm offered an engine with forged pistons and the block is drilled to fit the pistons. It will cost roughly €4000,- to buy it and have my own head fitted, nothing more. So this price excludes the head, the CAT cams, ITB's, ECU, etc. which I've already bought before. My engine is putting out 190 hp (not Bhp) at 16 °C outside temp and without airbox. If you want to have more you'll exponentially start paying for every HP. No offence to pingman and I'm curious to his build, but from what I'm reading it's the kind of "tuning" where they say they added 25 hp by mounting an open air filter without ever going to a dyno.
OE KR engine characteristics were compared OE ABF characteristics on this forum years ago and matched to factory advertised infomation. The red line on a KR engine is 6800 rpm and peak advertised power is at 6200 rpm. The reality from real cars was shared in this thread, along with acceleration data. Bhp as you will find is just a number and without context is pretty useless.
"We" get that Ed, but to the average layman the numbers give them a performance target they understand. These days I use a given usage to build a spec to and what they make like you say isn't quite so important as doing the job intended for them, but the estimated numbers still give a minds eye perspective as a guide.
