Intercooler vs Chargecooler , Benefits/pro's/con's of each

Hiya guys.

Looks like my mk1 golf will be struggling for space for a decent intercooler.

So im thinking of buying a charge cooler but dont know a lot about them?

Can anyone explain the benefits of each? Pro's and Con's.

Also any recomendations??

Cheers in advance guys

T

 

Charge coolers are more efficant than intercoolers in general. The dont tend to need alo of space, and water is a far better conducter of heat than air is. Charge coolers also offer a shorter path from turbo to engine as the cooler is situated in the engine bay as close to the TB as possible. The radiator is located in the cool air stream up front, and an electric motor keeps the water flowing.

The down side is fairly obvious, like any water cooled engine, if the pump fails, the cooling stops, the water twemp rises etc etc, not ideal. They are not cheap setups either. Also not good if you want to show off your 'charged motor as you cant see the big IC up front, some people view as a good thing, some people prefet the sleeper look.


IC's offer looks, great "on the move" cooling and a greater surface cooling area, but suffer from heat soak on very hot days in traffic etc. The piping is longer so a small amount of pressure drop is to be expected, how much depends on the turbo, pipe routing, ic flow rate etc etc.


For general purpose day to day driving, and IC is fine and the heat soak problem isnt really that noticable if its a daily driver etc.
But if you need experiancing stop and start on off power driving, with sweeping bends on a track where cooling is at a premium, and space is too, then id suggest a charge cooler kit.

 

surly a charge cooler is worse . if you get stuck in traffic the water temp goes up and will take longer to recover . plus you still have the problem of running a pre rad so space is not much diff between a intercooler then a charge cooler .

 

water cools quicker too. Plus might be worth adding a fan to the rad to help with low speed cooling.

The rad is only small, maybe the size of a large oil cooler, and the pipes are small, so routing is easy.

Major benifit of charge cooling is the shorter charge route this aiding turbo lag.

Charge coolers are generaly considerd to be more efficaint at cooling, but this is all dependant onapplication.

I personaly run a IC on my track car with no problems, if i gets to warm i empty a fire ectinguisher over it to aid rapid line starts

 

I've been fabbing a few ABF turbo bits mate i'll see if I can help. Up to 400hp seems okay in a mk1 for a front mount set-up and shouldn't cost you more than 2-300 all in. The front cross sectional area is between 33-36" wide x 12.5-13.5" high and with a 5-6" depth at the bottom and 3-4" at top, with that you've got to house the rad & int and cool them sufficiently.

There are 2 intercoolers ive found that seem the most suited that are about 80 and 120 respectively. The first is a slimline that is a conventional front mount set-up with throttle body on the passenger side and the second is a twin-pass for a drivers side TB like the ABF. These are both rated to 400hp and anymore than that seems to take up too much room blocking air to the rad. It would probably require severe re-location or a charge cooler over that or a series of specialy fabbed ducting. The twin-pass also keeps the piping fairly short down one side but you may have to do a bit of thinking on squeezing the intake down that side too if your using the mk1's lhd servo set-up.

Ducting an intercooler can help with cooling, just make sure its completely stuck to the cooler and gap free. Not using ducting or gaps means the air bounces off and goes off to the side unlike fully stuck which has no-where to go but through the intercooler. Using the twin-pass route i've found the MR2 radiator is a wide, yet slim design (12" high and 2" wide) that may be a suitable upgrade (trial tested the rad but not the combo).

I'd also seriously consider moving the battery to the boot too to free up some room for catch tanks and the like and make things easier.

 

I have a mate who runs a allard change cooler in his mk1 G60 (72mm pulley , nothelle spec engine , tis very fast ) is massive so big there is no room for a battery it takes up all that space and more and used a Merc aircon rad as the heat exchanger which is the entire width of the front panel, now i reckon thats fine for lower boost applications but for a turbo with high boost i think you better of with a IC , i ended up getting custom rad and IC designed for my mk1 , here is pic of the ones in for my car http://www.grsmotorsport.co.uk/golfgti.html he still sells them

 

i think its worth mentioning weight. the charge cooler will have more eqipment and there is water involved too, so added weight

 

Thanks guys for all your help.

Sounds like the charge coolers do take a lot of space in the engine bay and id rather not put battery in boot if i can help it.

Is there any more information on the slimline intercooler. Pictures or information on were to get a decent one?

Cheers again guys
Taz

 

This is who supplies me with coolers and the link to the slimline one. There are two twin pass ones rated at 400hp if u go that route so check which size u buy. I've used a few of these to good effect on a few cars

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Performance-S...5335822QQihZ012QQcategoryZ72205QQcmdZViewItem


Piecing together the pipe work shouldnt be too bad, these have a few options

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2-5-TURBO-INTERCOOLER-PIPE-PIPING-DIY-KIT-64MM-RED_W0QQitemZ200314678002QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item200314678002&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1689|66%3A3|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318

You may need someone to weld a few together but it should all come to less than 250 which ain't bad!

 

water has 4 x specific heat capacity of air so is very effecient in absorbing much more heat than an air to air would -HOWEVER - the comment water will cool quicker if meant on giving back that heat is not true.

Heat exchange is a function of the temperature difference.. and water to air is a much lesser number than air to air and heat exchange is longer with the smaller differential on a water to air pre-rad.

If you go water/charge cooler you can 'cheat' however and peltier cool the stored charge water to close to zero, and an air/air un-chemically cooled could not compete with that improvement in charge temps

 

Just looked at peltier coolers. Seem to be used for CPU cooling. How could it be used for cooling water?

 

look further in RS catalogue for peltiers... bigger units for example.
mount a pair of these into the ally holding tank or heat exchanger for cycled water and hey presto, uber cool water recirculating. sub-ambient.

not talking cpu coolers here.

think whats inside 12v fridges etc

 

Bill I looked at "super charge cooling" when I worked at a company that made beer coolers, we looked at using a glycol system recirculating at -6oC. The issue is that you just wouldn't be able to get rid of the heat soaked back into the glycol quick enough, you and up with a charge heater in the end.

Personally never seen the point of a charge cooler except for drag racing. When have you ever sat in traffic then needed to have all your available power immediately?

 

Its not a case of getting rid of the heat fast enough, big enough heat exchanger surface area and it will shed head... but given the far smaller delta in temps its slower to exchange.. starting from sub-ambient which is where I mentioned peltiers is both a larger delta temperature for the core the exchange. air-air wont achieve subambient unless chemically enhanced or sprayed etc.

Chargecoolers have their place where space is an issue, as running coolant lines to a remote pre-rad can be easier than bigger charge pipework if trying to do and air-air.. They need water, they need a pump (they can fail in my experience), they need their own water supply often (not always if you use a washer bottle for example)

not saying they are better, they are different and have their own pros as well as cons - which is the post topic after all.

I have run charge cooler, I now run large FMIC.. and would'nt revert to a chargecooler. My FMIC is chemically enhanced however and ait's for me have not been a problem. My chargecooler was good at heat exchanging, its pre-rad was woefully inadequate in surface area, and adding peltier coolers was a way of helping it out, chilling its recirculating water to just over zero 'C. Make an effecient heat exchanger with the peltiers to further cool what the pre-rad has'nt just helps.

I dont get what you say here tho

If anything, a chargecooler sat in traffic is absorbing engine bay heat diectly into the water, which is a bad thing... as it has to exchange it back out again (slowly) FMIC in the same conditions is not heatsoaking at all.. no hot ait's passing thru it when sat in traffic.

when I ran my charge cooler at the ring some years back, after every single lap I had to dump its water completely out and refill with cold as it heatsoaked. Very hot 30'C weather, and IHI power pushing 320bhp @ the time. The water was like hot bath water after every lap.

 

Hi, I had a chargecooler on my mk1 because i had a lack of space in the front panel because i fitted aircon which needed a condensor.

I can now say that it was the biggest mistake ever. I had nothing but problems with the chargecooler setup loosing water and getting too hot.

Ive melted pistons and plugs on two engines due to the system failing. And my heavy right foot.

Ive now fitted a sprinter intercooler because its nice and slim and has the advantage of safety.

If theres a problem with it unlike the chargecooler setup. it will simply leak boost and still keep the engine relativly safe from overheating.

 

Thanks guys,

I think my mind is made up so i will have to somehow get a decent intercooler that will fit the small area of space i have.

The slimline and the sprinter setup mentioned sound pretty good so will look into them.

Champo, any chance of some measurements for the sprinter setup?

T

 

Yeah no worries

I've just been out with my tape measure

the intercooler just fits between the chassis legs so it gives you an idea of the size

its roughly 870mm width, 280mm high and the core depth is 50mm at its widest point where it meets the end caps and 40mm actual core width.

inlet and outlet are 65mm dia

hope this helps

 

Cheers mate,

do you have a build thread of your mk1, looks and sounds sweet.

T

 

Are the Sprinter coolers plastic end tanks?

 

Hi, Sorry for the late reply.

Ive got a small build thread on here but its way out of date. should get round to fixing it up really!

Here's a page from my website all about my car it, again this needs updating.

http://www.gmvw.co.uk/champosmk1.htm

The intercooler has got plastic end tanks. Alot of people run these with no problems.