Lurker's first post... '74 Golf with ABF - and no idea...

Good evening folks. After lurking for years thought I'd introduce myself.
I'm a long time dyed-in-the-wool VW fan. Will drive nothing that's not German. Had Golfs for ever and still haven't attained the car I dreamt of at 17... but nearly there. I apologise in advance for long post and naive questions.

I am currently on with building a mk1 fun car. I bought an ABF and some 40 DHLAs but on inspection the ABF is scrap. Oil not changed in years and exhaust cam starved and has goosed head. Big ends scored and crank damaged so not a lot to salvage. this being the case I could either source another motor, which could be similarly abused, or build a stroker using the block. Presuming it's okay.
I'm an architect and not a mechanic but I've got mucky finger nails and have a bit of knowledge and friends with more. I'll be building the motor in my shed with advice/criticism from those in the know and learning as I go. I've trawled Vortex, this forum, etc and whist there's a lot of knowledgeable folk (rubjonny, hotgolf etc) I am finding it difficult to sort the truth from the nonsense and the folk who advise with the best will in the world but don't really know what they're on about - and I don't know enough to decipher what's right and wrong.


So Far I have decided on:
Ported and polished KR head (because I have one)
Cat 279/279 cams (because I have them)
3-angle valves/ seats and possible waisted inlet valves?
ABF standard followers (do some use mk5 followers?)
ABF block
ABF rods or replacements 159mm H beams if I really should?
95.5mm crank (because I have one somewhere)
83.5mm rebore
40 DHLAs with TPS (because I have them and I don't want bodies just yet)
NoDiz pro ignition and VR6 crank position sensor.
100mm drive shafts (turns out they're same as Corrado shafts - is that right?)
02A with cable shifter.
Manual clutch actuator
VR6 clutch
G60 flywheel
Powersprint 4-branch

Question marks are regarding pistons and CR. I've been advised to use 9A pistons but I thought these were 82.5 diameter. So, I assume I'll have to use JE/ Wossner aftermarket items.
Next question is do I need to specify centre of wrist pin to piston crown height, as I don't want an increased CR (do I?) and presume 95.5mm crank will see squish reduced to zero/worse? Would rather not spend a ton on pistons to have to have them decked/pocketed.
Is there an issue with oil squirters and the 95.5mm crank?

Also.. I now figure DHLA 40s won't be up to the job but have some old 45 DCOEs that may be better suited. Will have throttle position sensor for 3D mapping.
Will VR6 crank sensor with with diesel 95.5mm crank?

I'm not looking for tremendous power just a quick road car for occasional blasts on Sunday mornings.

Any advice on things I've misunderstood or components which simply don't complement each other will be gratefully received. Sorry for all the questions on a first post.
Thanks
mik

 

Morning.

Welcome and thanks for posting.

The net some of components is a list that SHOULD result in a performance ABF engine.

Problem with these questions is what is your perception of performance? And how do those parts address your desire.

I have been involved in matching performance to perception on several ABF vehicles on this forum. I can say, it does not a lot of trick 16v components to allow a MK1 Golf to achieve a 14 secs 1/4 mile burst of acceleration.

That said this is what I will suggest to your list.


Ported and polished KR head (because I have one) - The ABF 051D cylinder head in stock cast, can flow almost as much as a 'ported and flowed' 027 or 051 KR/9A casting. Not just flow either, but less shrouding around the exhaust valves.
Cat 279/279 cams (because I have them) - OK once you have bumped the compression and can accurately address fuel metering and ignition curves for the entire performance envelope.
3-angle valves/ seats and possible waisted inlet valves? - Increases flow at small lifts for faster response to torque in principle
ABF standard followers (do some use mk5 followers?) - Followers not the main issue - with cams and CR you need to cater for more revs, so you need valve springs.
ABF block - In good state generally, making sure the intermediate shaft area is all legit.
ABF rods or replacements 159mm H beams if I really should? - No harm with such an engine. These can be sourced in the EU or from IE in the US
95.5mm crank (because I have one somewhere) - More work + expense and not required to achieve your objectives if you build the 2.0 motor correctly. the stock 92.8 mm crank is fine.
83.5mm rebore - I would not bore the engine 1 mm over from the get go. 83mm from 82.5 mm will make sure all is straight and ensure a good seal.
40 DHLAs with TPS (because I have them and I don't want bodies just yet) - If you fit Carbs, and expect the widest operating range, you will be disappointed when a sorted car with EFI and a stock manifold can wizz past you on a track. You need the best fuel and spark control with such a besoke engine.
NoDiz pro ignition and VR6 crank position sensor. - Usually a Standalone Engine Management system (SEM) takes care of spark/ignition as well and many will just use the stand sensors including the ABF's hall crank pick up. I would suggest to invest in one and ditch the carbs
100mm drive shafts (turns out they're same as Corrado shafts - is that right?) - 100 mm flanges on a 02A CDA/DPA ABF gearbox yes. Two types of 100 mm flanges exisit, ABFs tend to be the bolt on type.
02A with cable shifter. - No choice if running an 02A gearbox
Manual clutch actuator - Optional if you can find one. There is a company that sells a MK1 Hydraulic kit to work with the original hydraulic slave.
VR6 clutch - To be fair any 02A
G60 flywheel - or ABF as they are the same thing.
Powersprint 4-branch - You mean Supersprint for a MK1

You mentioned "Hotgolf". He is the leading VW gearbox man and also does engines. Via his Gas n Gears company, you can refurbish your gearbox, source and add an LSD, lighten your flywheel to compliment any engine spec you end up with.

I have been championing the ABF engine on this forum since 2006 and still own NA and turbo cars, powered by that engine in various states of tune.

Feel free to ask any more questions.

 

Morning gents. thank you for the prompt replies and great info. Will go and check shafts in case I've bought wrong set (not beyond me)
superb advice. I'll have to go away and process it and possibly change my views.
I'm not wanting a track day monster and really would be happy with 180+hp.
I know carbs are stone-age technology but on such an old car I would like to keep carbs.
Thanks again fellas. No doubt I'll have many more questions as I learn.

I can see now that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing...

 

I have tuned stock ABF base engines on this forum ,with an SEM ECU and ITBs and achieved 180+ bhp on the dyno we used for club dyno days on this forum.

Here is an example thread of a few cars.

https://www.clubgti.com/forums/inde...ted-up-180bhp-155lb-ft-abf-ftw.195585/page-15

Numbers aside, to go pretty quick in a MK1, a stock engine with few carefully selected bits and the right tuning is all that is needed.

No need to build an engine with trick bits then fit carbs which limits the potential.

 

Toyotec, I take your point. Maybe I'm overcomplicating unnecessarily and to the detriment of the outcome.
What do you chaps do? Are you all involved professionally in the engine building/tuning business or is it a hobby that's got out of hand?

Thanks for the advice. just when I was starting to think I was getting my head around it...

 

On here there’s all sorts !
Professional engine builders , engine tuners , racers , serious track day drivers and then there’s the rest of us with experience in many different fields that just love messing with old cars

 

Can't beat oily old cars...
I've drawn a diagram to help me try to understand the implications of switching pistons and cranks. I can't find the compression height of a standard ABF piston but guessed it'd be about 31.2 to match height of standard 9A at 0.6mm over deck.
According to my really basic drawing (and understanding) a 9A piston and an ABF rod and a diesel crank would make the piston 0.95mm over deck.
Is there a risk of interference here or will it cause too much squish/ pre-ignition? or is this what we want?

Simplistic diagram below. Please advise if I've misunderstood or used wrong measurements. Thanks
here's alink to is as I can't get pic to load
https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipNLS3miyeobaE4zQexZXxYg3aswzAsUGp8XyDc

 

A bit more broader that what Sirguydo stated.

There are folks on here, who are doctors of engineering, automotive manufacturing development engineers and support personal, machinists, coachwork professionals , engine builders, engine tuners, professional racers, track day folk, garage owners, the hone DIYers and the inquisitive and some who just lurk as you were for a while.

We all have the love of vehicles as common hobby as enthusiasts. It can drive a door installer to turn a complicated project into a reality or a taxi driver into an excellent racing engine builder.

Together we are here to help make your experience less complicated.

 

Morning All,
Following Toyotec's advice on the need for valve springs, The ABF cam has a PL of 10.9 and Cat cams have a PL of 11.45 exhaust and 12 for intake.
Is this beyond the standard springs, will I need double springs such as
https://www.supertechperformance.com/p18618-sprk-v2093-4-16s-dual-valve-spring-kit
Or are there uprated single springs?
Thanks
Mik

 

Stock springs and retainers will be unsuitable.

You will need to team up with a good engine man, to ensure what you fit has the right spring stiffness and does not foul the valve guide or binds up.

 

Thanks for quick reply. I'm getting a bit daunted now... well, I've come this far may as well do the job right.
Anybody know a good engine builder in North Yorkshire?

 

Tbh, for the performance you're looking, you could retain the stock rods and crank, and spend the cost of uprated ones on other important stuff. Such as higher comp pistons, headwork etc. You'd really want to be chasing the max performance to go down the 2.1 route.
Our resident Abf Guru Adlai / Toyotec here has managed to get close to 200 bhp on an ABF with a standard inlet mani, iirc stock pistons? With careful refinement of the engine management using Megasquirt.
Ed, you might correct me if I'm wrong?

Re fuelling, if you want carbs just for the look, Jenvey do throttle bodies that are designed to look like side draught carbs.

 

Cheers Tristan,
I realise I've led myself down a wrong path with the stroker idea and need to look at the order of modifications - possible still increasing stroke eventually, but not as a first step.
Crasher noted the undersquare effect of a stroker on revs in an earlier post.
I hope the questions don't get tiresome. I am enjoying learning.

 

Engine gurus I deal with are, HPR near Antwerp Belgium, CTM Performance in Romford Essex and our own resident 'hotgolf' of Gas n Gears in Wales.
Mileageis not a problem when it has to be done right.

Jon olds from here is nearer to the North than those places I listed. Maybe he could suggest folks nearer on your end.

 

Thanks again Toyotec. It's been months since I've had time to think about this engine but I've made a little progress. Old block has been bored at last - took ages to find out piston clearance measurement from JE. I had to phone them in California in the end but the chap was very helpful - albeit in imperial!
Drakes of Bradford have inserted new intermediate shaft bearings but the outer end bearing wasn't in far enough so the shaft bound when the end oil seal cap was tightened.
Did some home electrolysis to remove rust from water jacket and it worked surprisingly well.
I've got most components to build up the bottom end now but have to have the little ends re-bushed to suit the 20mm wrist pins of the 9A pistons.
Does anybody know the exact internal bore of the bushes? Is it sufficient to measure the internal diameter of the existing 21mm bearing and the external diameter of the existing 21mm wrist pin and use the same tolerance for the 20mm wrist pin?
Thanks.
mik

 

I do all my own stuff, you could try MB Motorsport (Jarrow) Mick does a lot of rallycross cars, has been around a long time
and will at least try and guide you.

 

Thanks Jon,
Will try Mick.

 

Hello again

Bit of progress between having too much work to do and just enough family time to keep married. I suppose thats the norm for most people.
Got the crank back, lightened, balanced, knife edged and pulley-end dowelled. Just had to drill a hole in the ABF trigger wheel so it could be mounted over the locating bobble on the crank.
Took the plunge and bought ARP main bolts. Glad I did as the crank has been in an out a few times already. I forgot to put the oil squirters in first time and then discovered the rods hit the block, so this weekend I'll be relieving the block 1mm or so.
I've checked crank run-out with DTI, end float, oil clearances on big ends and mains and all is going well. Well, up to the rods hitting the block that is.
Was a pleasure to find out that the JE pistons have cut outs to miss the oil squirters though.
Gapping the rings was the most nerve-racking thing I've done in years... I'm still not convinced I've got them right.

Few queries again please:
1. How close is the water jacket to the bottom of the cylinder wall... thinking about grinding for the rods.
2. In terms of balancing the bottom end do I assemble the clutch, flywheel and crank and take the lot to be balanced together? Or is it not necessary?
3. Can I reuse the ABF harmonic balancer or do I need one suited the the 95.5mm crank?
4. I bought a NOS Kolbenschmitd oil pump but it feels a bit rough to turn. Would have thought it'd be as smooth as anything? of course it's bone dry though. Am I worrying about nowt.
5. Can the existing windage tray be used with the striker crank?

That's it for another 6 months probably.
Cheers

 

Photos or none of this happened!
I'm only jealous because you've managed to do something to your car...