As I'm based down in West Wales and Road Rallying is big down here. My main race a car, a MK1 Golf, is built for hill climbs and sprints and is quite specialist so not much use for anything else these days. The problem with Hill climbs and Sprints is that it is 100% commitment off the line on cold tyres, runs last about one to two minutes and that is it, four runs an event. Seat time is limited and, in my case at least, so is testing as the car is far from road legal and testing limited. My thinking here is two fold. One, navigators minimum age is 14 and as my son is now 15 it give us a chance to get out in a race car and have some fun and secondly, it gives me some seat time. Track days are ok but don't really give you much practice for sprints and hillclimbs where you need to be on the pace quickly and deal with a very lively car from the off. Much better suited to circuit racing IMHO. So I looked at building a car but it's far more cost effective to buy one ready done. In addition, whilst we have followed night events since I was a kid, I have never competed so I reckon better to buy the knowledge as well. Anyhow after a few discussions and a comment of Face book from one of my friends the Red MK2 Golf below turned up for the right price with the right spec. I wasn't bothered if it was a MK1 or 2. I have far more MK1 bits but the engine, box and some of the running gear are interchangeable. The MK2 probably makes a better rally car as it is that bit stronger and cheaper, although they seem to be on the up. The specification is as the seller described, a novice spec car, which is idea for what we want. Here is a pic, big bumper 8v. Been around as road rally car for a while. I've seen pics of it as far back as 2002, reasonably sure it's been re shelled as it quite tidy and straight. Like the old broom story, same broon three different heads and five different handles lol. Interior, par for the course. proper seats, belts, cage, carbon fibre nav foowell, various light, clocks and switches for this and that. Back seats and trim still fitted as per rules and spec. Boot; spare wheels, tools, storage pockets, proper light, first aid kit, spill kit etc. Front brakes, S2 twin piston calipers and 280mm approx groved discs - they work! Proper coilover thick tube Bilsteins, new wishbones, all polybushed, plus heavy duty sump guard. Also has fuel line guards etc. Rear end has std Bilstein dampers with competition springs, twin calipers (one std set and another set of Fiesta 1100 front calipers for the hydraulic handbrake - not fitted in pic) here is the spec I was given on the engine and drive train. 16v 020 box, GKN CV's, Sachs clutch. The block is 2.0ltr, head is a TSR big valve one (came off a TSR Silverstone engine originally), TSR 202 cam and a TSR 4/1 manifold. various mods buy the look of it but not bottomed it all out yet although it does have a 90 amp alternator, PAS, proper under bonnet light fitted, Vibatech front mount, steel head gasket, catch tank etc. After I got it home had a scratch around to see it the head was marked and sure enough had some TSR marks on it - fair play. So that is the basic car, trying to stop myself fiddling with it and just use it. Came with Tax and Mot, starts and runs nice and feels sorted once down the lanes at speed. Too high geared and feels like there is more power in there but you can't really judge against my other car as that is in a different league in power and performance. I just feel that there should be more torque, seems ok once spinning, but as I say better to use it as it is at the moment and see how my navigator gets on first
Good find. I wouldn't class this as 'taty', just used. You are in a similar position to me, golf wise. I have a full race rallycross type comp car. And have just finished converting a mk2 track car to a stage rally car. Good luck and keep us informed, Jon
Thanks for that Tony. My question from FB has now been completely answered. Look forward to your updates on it.
Update on the Mk2. Decided to fit the Ex-works Gemini Sequential to the Tatty Golf so will take the 020 gearbox out of that and put it in this one. Quadruples the value of the car but hey.....it would only sit on the floor of the workshop otherwise. For anyone who doesn't follow the Tatty Golf in the Motorsport section its a Bacci VWMS gear kit, a Gripper plate LSD all in an 020 case, maintained by Hotgolf. To fit it in to the MK2 I'm going to have to ask him to build all the parts in to a later set of gear cases as the FM cases I currently use are 90mm inver CV only. To use the 100mm CV's of the MK2 it has to be changed. I was told the MK2 has GKN CV's on it so probably better to change. I have a feeling that a MK1 gear box won't fit a MK2, something to do with the rear bolts/stud configuration? Have fitted MK4 rear callipers with some hoses from HEL brakes. simple enough to fit, hopefully will work ok. I've removed the second set of calliper mounts for now. Have redone the hydraulic handbrake mount so it's all solid. However having had a try of it I think I'll disconnect this set up, I've never had much success with this type of arrangement. I think I'll set up a separate reservoir and maybe some motorbike callipers separate to the std system. This set up makes the pedal travel too long and vague.
I've extended the steering wheel position to suit and will fit a foot rest for my clutch foot. fabricated the steering wheel extension. Driving position etc is now all ok
Picked up a set of ex-Clio cup Speedline magnesium alloys in 7x15" size. These fit fine with some 10mm spacers. I'll change the studs for a better set of hight tensile ones if I can. I am using hub-centric spacers but on a Road Rally I guess the car will take a hammering so best to be safe!! As for tyres I have acquired a pair of part worn Avon CR28 sports in 205/50/15 and purchased a pair of new ones in a similar size. These are bespoke Road Rally tyres made specifically by Avon. They are in a very soft compound and in a wet pattern and suitably tough for a road rally.
Picked up a Magnex 2" exhaust form one of the guys on here. Fitted this in place of the cobbled together system that was on the car. Bit quieter but should at least last the night!!
Had to bleed the front brakes. Quite a lot done to the front end, polybushed, new wishbones, Coil over thick tube Bilsteins, Twin pot S2? brakes, big, grooved discs, Goodridge hoses etc. However as I have a set of AP5200 callipers for the Tatty Golf I might fit the Wilwood 4 pot callipers from that. The S2 brakes are very good but very heavy, the Wilwoods will be so much lighter!
With all of that done this is how it looks. As the Tatty Golf will be in bits for a while I've entered the Scruffy Red Golf in the Welsh Hill climb Championship, as there is a Road Rally class this year . Hopefully my youngster will decide to get to grips with some map reading and we will be able to do a few road rallies as well. He tells me he has exams at the moment so I can't say anything until they are over.
Great stuff. You have stirred the little grey cells with your comment about mk1 and mk2 020 interchnageability. You may have just sunk me..................(my plans for mk1 , mk2 fitment) Jon
I would check what I was saying first Jon! I just seem to remember one bolt hole or something missing or in the wrong place on one do them.
Yeah, but I fear it'll be a long drag up the hill in this one I hope it's raining! Last year every event I did it rained, this car is ideal for the rain, bet it's sunny every event this year now I have a car suited to it!! I think it should be fun at Llys Y Fran, wet or dry although I fear it will be totally lost at Llandow, we'll see! Entered for the 10th May at Llandow and 11th May at Llys y Fran (we'll I've not entered Llys Y Fran yet but it's my own clubs event so I should get in!)
Bit of an update, not had much time for forum posting but plenty has been going on. Did Llandow sprint and Llys y fran hillclimb in the car. Won the road rally class at Llandow (by the skin of my teeth) and second at Llys y fran. The car was happy enough to rev and sat on the limiter at 6200 much of the time! The problem was it didn't do much while getting there and didn't feel much fun, despite having a 4.47 FD and VWMS ratios in the box (geared for about 95 @ 6000 rpm). Took the car to Mosleys Rolling Road to see where the power was. We ran it up to see what it had and the result was 112bhp at the crank, pretty much what I expected. We started to play around with timings, did two runs and then it spun a big end bearing and seized solid! Never mind, excuse to build a proper one I suppose As its a night event car, no point in building a fire breathing monster, even though I'm hillclimbing it at the moment, in its class it should be competative anyway. First to strip the engine and see what went wrong and why (for the record I didn't build this one, its what was in it). Also have a look and see what was in it that was useful and salvageable. Engine coming out. Here is part of the power problem, makes you wonder if people check anything when the build cars!! This is a problem lol, couldn't get the bearing off the crank even with a club hammer! TSR C pack head as told by the seller, all looks good. valve seats are all good, which is good news. Head, cam and valves were all good. Replaced one lifter as it was slightly pitted on top (odd!) Manifold being machines our to match ports, out of interest the pattern exhaust gaskets I purchsed were miles too small and were skipped. Re used original ones which were ok. Decided the problem with the big end must have been oil starvation at Llandow as you do pull some G's with sticky tyres on the long sweepers there, even with limited power. Nothing else in the motor was dodgy, all looked good. Made some sump baffles and fitted a windage tray as well for peace of mind. Didn't want to pull the bottom end out again so I replaced the oil pump and cooler, all seals and gaskets, new big end, mains and thrust bearings. Obviously fitted ABF head gasket (it did have one on it originally) plus ARP big end bolts and some heavy duty main bolts. New forged 2E crank installed with hardwear. Block was decked and pistons machined to get the compression right to suit the TSR 203 cam and get the squish correct. The pistons and rings were the nearly new ones that came out of the Tatty Golf Slick 50 engine. Just had the block lightly honed to bed the rings. Head torqued up ready to time the ignition and cam up on the bench, plenty of assembly lube! Engine, clutch and gear box assembled ready to go back in. VWMS box now in it plus a helix competition clutch and lightened flywheel. Nearly all back in Took two weeks as I had to get it back out for an event the following week - lots of work I could have done without. Test drove it and much better, did Epynt hill climb the next week and it went well. Second on the Saturday and Sunday, 6 or 7 in the class so good result. The limited at 6200rpm is rubbish as the car is still not at peak power plus it still seems a bit flat. The spec says 140>145 BHP on paper, fells like 130bhp. Looked in to sorting the Digi ECU, most info says you can't do much and they are rubbish, thought about fitting a stand alone ECU but I'd never recoup the cost. Eventually, through chatting to the guys on here, worked out that the chip can be changed but that only stores the fuel map, the ignition and rev limit are on the ECU's on board memory chip. Found a company who could sort it, so had a new chip fitted for the fuel map, and had the on board ignition map and rev limit changed to suit the spec I supplied and had the rev limit adjusted to 7200rpm. Got it back and fitted and much better, quite sharp now, has lost the 'wooliness' it had before, probably around the 140>145bhp the spec is supposed to give now. The only issue was that it was supposed to have the limit at 7200rpm, which I'm told it has but he set the soft cut at 6800rpm which is too low. Soft cut limiters have no place on a race engine anyhow, hard cut is all you need. turns out it had a fuel chip in it anyway but as the guy said that's no good on it's own, just makes it run rich. We've been racing all year and doing quite well so far, but that's another story.......................
Up date on the Mk2 Road Rally car. I have been running this one while I plan the Tatty Golfs next series of development. The 8v engine proved to be sufficient to be competitive against the competition (on most occasions). The Avons CR28's, whilst great in the wet and no doubt great on mixed surfaces, were a little imprecise on fast tarmac. Whilst the grip was ok, as the compound quite soft, the heavy block pattern meant the car moved about a bit on the initial turn in, once it settled and the initial looseness had gone it gripped ok. However, it was clear they were not the ideal set up to dry tarmac - that we seemed to have all last year............now I don't have 224bhp of 8v power to play with!! Before changing tyres I made some changes to the suspension. Nothing too dramatic as the car is a Road Rally car and I wanted it to remain in that specification. I wanted to keep the suspension compliant to still suit Welsh lanes and remain in the spirit of the Road Rally class, so no big spring or damper rates. Firstly I modified a std MK1 Golf rear roll bar and mounts to fit a MK2 (in addition to the std MK2 one). This was quite easy to do and fitted nicely. Next I modified the Maxnex exhaust system, as I didn't like the rear silencer. The internal design of the silencer was poor, the mountings were dodgy (although I fear this was more to do with VW than Magnex) and it was heavy. I had a Formula Renault silencer on the shelf so I modified that and fabricated a decent mounting system. Next, the front springs needed to be a bit stiffer and shorter plus and the top mounts were worn. I had read that MK3 ones were better so decided to fit some of those. The thick tube Bilstein dampers made it a bit more fiddly and I had to machine up quite a few bits and pieces to make it all work, but got there. The reason for the shorter springs was that the tyres touched the spring adjusters with the longer springs fitted, so I had to go stiffer and shorter, as I lost travel and I didn't want them to bottom out. The new ones are 350lbs as I recall. Once fitted I had to get it all aligned. Didn't have much time as I was racing the next day and time was getting on so, used a few aluminium box rules, a couple of spirit levels and a tape measure. Slight toe out and about 2.5 degrees of negative camber. Back to the tyres, I decided to sue some Avon ZZR's as I saw some of the quicker 'Caterfields' were using them. It turns out they make these in a Hillclimb compound so gave them a go, after approx 50 seconds and they look like this - so suitably soft Good tyres, I really like them. Anyhow, after lots of small mods and adjustments we did ok for the season. Running in the Road Rally class of the Welsh Hillclimb and Sprint Championship we won the class and came second overall. In many of the English rounds there was no Road Rally car class, so we were either in with the Stage rally cars or Road modified class. Both have a higher specification and all allow carbs or throttle bodies, however we gave a good account of ourselves, often beating stage cars and 16v cars on ITB's, so a good season. Car loaded up ready to go to Charmouth Hill climb. Day two at Charmouth, having breakfast in the back of the van as the sun rises Final results for the Welsh Champs. So to next season. Meaning to get the Tatty Golf back out, however there have been a few developments and it looks like the Tatty Golf is going back to Circuits and a new Tatty Golf hillclimb/sprint car will materialise for the hills....at some point. Development is a never ending process of course................. so as I had an ex F3 16v engine lying about and I had been asked to sell the dry sump system I thought I would build a 16 for the Road Rally car out of the parts. I shouldn't cost too much as I had most of the parts. The main restriction of a road rally car is the requirement to use a the standard inlet manifold and throttle body. So I thought it would be fun to build a decent engine form the parts I had. The F3 car reputedly had 230 bhp in a Dallara on ITB's so I didn't think it unreasonable to get 200bhp out of the bits on a std VW throttle body. Here is the spec: 8v tall block, modified to suit 16v. 6a 92.8mm stroke forged crank Wiseco forged 12.5:1 82.5mm pistons 159mm I beam steel rods with ARP2000 bolts 16v oil pump VW windage tray Baffles sump Newman race cams (296 degree/12.5mm lift) Newman springs etc. to match Solid lifters and lash caps Ported 16v head (to go off to JMR to be tided up and sorted out) ABF head gasket race main bolts and head studs. Modified KR inlet manifold 9a throttle body (with TPS) MBE ECU and loom 4/1 exhaust manifold. Have the block on an engine stand ready to start the dry build. The interesting bit at the moment (for me anyway) is the inlet manifold. Its a 50mm one, but having had a look up the runners its clear there are all sorts of obstructions, needed for the Kjet I guess, but look awful for flow. So I'm going to hack out all of the things I don't like and get it flowed properly. Here are the ports as std, although I've had a bit of a hack about to test my new extended carbide cutters . The plan is to machine out all the obstructions then sort out the issues that creates. Having had a good look the favourite is to inset an aluminium bar and fill up the gaps as required, then machine that to suit the ports. The other issue is that the 9a throttle body has this odd diverter bit bolted to the smaller throttle plate. Assume its there for low/part throttle response or some such thing. I just want max flow at full throttle so I'll be changing that for a MK2 8 v one Anyhow that's as far as I have got at the moment, will update once I have some more news on the MK2.
http://www.clubgti.com/showthread.php?238362-MK3-2-0-16v-road-rally-car-build-thread Have you seen the two 'Roberts' MK2 Golfs (one purple, one green) out on the RR scene in Wales, they're doing a bloody good job those two cars. Mine's off to have a stainless system made for it next week, then we're hoping to get a slot on a couple of events in the near future.
'The Dude' and 'GT'!! Yeah, they are doing good in the MK2's, giving the Escorts a kicking . Mine has an association with them and has been around the Road rally Scene for a good few years, has a few events to its name when it was running a higher spec than it was when I purchased it, although probably not as good as at present!!. They were up at the Welsh Association Of Motor Clubs Awards Dinner last month, when we were picking up out awards. The Dude and Gwawr Hughes picked up quite a few cups between them to be fair, big effort from them. Haven't actually met them, meant to go and find them after the dinner but got caught up with a few groups drinking and never got round to it!! I was meant to be out in it, purchased the car so my son could navigate. However, he's not made any effort to learn to navigate so I entered it in the Hillclimb champs instead. Not that bothered about looking for a nav, but maybe if he doesn't get himself organised I might have a look around. I will get it log booked at some point as more likely to get it out on some closed event tarmac stage rallies like Pembrey.
Been watching your build, looks good. At least you have got yours down the lanes! The MK3's look strong, the MK2 is pretty good as well. I think the MK1 is a bit too light for the lanes. Maybe this year I'll get it out on at least one event and see how it goes. Must put the sump guard back on, don't need it on the hills and sprints!!
