T45 & stress relief + pulse MIG welding on cages

It's not that you're "not getting anywhere here", it's that you aren't willing to explore the fairly persuasive information being presented, and in some way help iterate to the overriding logic and indeed a better idea of the answer!

1) All WRC cages are inspected by the FIA - here:

2) Teams conduct their own testing. To say "I'd also be surprised if M-sport have done their own testing on welding techniques, that would be quite costly and time consuming... " implies you have no insight into the budget these teams have. Nine-ten 350k Fiesta WRCs and a turnover of 50m:



3) Drivers do it also on a regular basis - here:



If the cages aren't up to scratch, the manufacturers get found out when faced with the ultimate compelling evidence: driver fatalities believed caused by roll cage failure.

I don't think anyone has said that in this thread. I certainly haven't. I took pictures of the Fiesta S1600 posted on this thread myself, at Christmas, and I've seen these cars before.

The reason why I've posted a reply is simply because I'd like to try to iterate towards the basis for pulse welding, and understand it, and possible even use it some more.

 

I think this post sums it up well.
Due to the physical constraints when installing a cage in a car it is virtually impossible to get access to perform continuous welds. So rather than try and fail to get perfect continuous welds, it seems the next best thing is to get very good pulse style welding where one has time to position oneself and torch to make sure the weld is as good as it can be. Also, welding tubes of different wall thickness requires bias to keep penetration balanced. Same goes for tacking cage tubes to the thinner body shell. The heat generated by a continuous weld makes this hard as it can distort and weaken the thinner material.

Hamish also mentions that very little if any difference was found in the two methods and the beaks in both did not occur near the welds anyway.

Jools, you must have some impeccable standards if you think that this level of welding is not up to scratch for the application. And to think you called my ITB setup pikey.

 

I'm starting to question you quite highly now!

I, at no point have said that I have seen it online, have I!?

Also, be surprised as I'm telling you the second fact For someone that has taken the effort to do 'numerous courses' (even though I remember reading a post of yours late last year saying you hadn't even done any tig courses, which makes me think you're exaggerating there, compounded with your very odd views), you seem to be unwilling/ unable to listen. You don't seem to be quite grasping the experience that we have in this area, comparent to your 'night school' lessons. Adding to this is the number or friends we have still working there. Thats Why I talk of M-sport alot, but I guess you also have a lot of knowledge on this too

Also, do bear in mind that my cage is not like your thick CDS one I was welding up the front strut extensions yesterday so was able to even see inside after welding, there is ample penetration! Even between the 'blobs' (as you call them). You continue firing that extra heat into your cage and we'll see whos fails where if it ever comes to it

Jools you're now firmly sat in my troll category.

 

I don't think I've been unreasonable with my argument, in previous posts I said i understand the difficulty of welding a cage in, not only welding round tube but in awkward positions, however the picture i quoted in the first post this wasn't a difficult position, and is of poor quality.




Squible:

1)Its not what you said but you were talking about M-sport and the techniques they use, implying that you've copied there techniques.

2)Tig wise i've just done a level 2 in ally, but did Mig 1 and 2 in mild steel, about 5-6 years ago when i left school. None of us are Tig'ing a cage in anyway, sod tig'ing a cage in that would be abit tricky.

3)The courses that I've done and the 5 years working at the uni have given me a wide experience of fab/weld jobs, I feel i've gained vaulable knowledge through hands on experiences, this is why i was abit miffed about the techniques your friend used to weld a cage in. Also I watched the vids on the link below on how custom cages fit their cages.

http://www.customcages.co.uk/roll-cages/weld-in-fitting-guide
note the style of welding they are using, no blobby blobby in sight!

And Danster, My standard are about normal, i just like things to be done properly, especially when it comes to welding a cage in.

Squib: If i say that all your welding is amazing and you have some awsome fab skills does that mean you don't think I'm a troll anymore?

 

I don`t know if you`ve just missed the subtlety or are willfully mis-reading what he`s written, but from what I`ve read in two of his posts the person/people doing the welding either work or have worked for M-Sport, so it`s not just `copying of their technique`...

 

Jools, it's your outright dismissal of M-Sport expertise that I can't reconcile.

M-Sport are what was effectively Ford Motorsport, when FMC ceased building works cars at Boreham Airfield, Essex, in 1996/7.

 

Again have you any pictures of main parts of their cages where a consistent weld run hasn't been used?
I'm not dismissing M-sport outright i was just abit miffed of their techniques in the pics you posted, which were additional parts of a cage and strut tops, not the main parts of the cage that we're discussing.

 

Yes, see post 32

 

I said main parts of a cage, main hoop, A pillars, etc.

 

I've mentioned in threads before, i find it amazing that the motorsport regs can stipulate a material requirement for the cages, yet there is absolutley no requirement for the verification of the welding which holds the tubes together and the tubes to the car

I'd be very interested to know wether or not the fabricators have Weld Procedures and Weld Qualification Records for the type of welding they carry out. This is the only real way to ensure consistant quality. Also what NDT and DT testing the motorsport cages undergo, if any, i presume that was the intention for the cage fabricated outwith the car?

As these are safety devices, i'd have expected a pretty high level of QA/QC to be applied.

 

Incorrect.

 

What are the requirements? Are they purely visual inspection, or are they subject to NDT?

 

For WRC: FIA inspection (+ originator in-house option to test/destruct)
For a cage mfr/retailler eg Safety Devices: FIA certification (implied inspection + originator in-house option to test/destruct)
For a cage fitter / mfr eg Custom Cages: in house expertise & FIA/MSA certification (+ originator in-house option to test/destruct)
For an individual using a supplied cage: welding samples sent to supplier for a certificate of conformity aka self-cert. All visual, subject to active deception re sample.
For an independent creating tube structure from scratch: mandatory to meet minimum tube requirements plus mere weld quality prescritpions in the Blue Book to underwrite quality + on-event scrutineer inspections. All visual.

All of this applies to vehicles in regulated competition. Outside of that: nothing.

I had this convo a week ago with someone and if the roll cage spectrum was heavily regulated, end-to-end, the costs (aka greed) would spiral out of control.

 

I've seen the welding on the same Fiesta S1600s at Autosport, on the A-pillars, in 2005/6.

This is another works-prepared Fiesta S1600, pics taken a couple of years ago, again by myself:

 

A few mates used to work for QT services, building the wildcat and one guy in particular welding up the chassis. I went to the workshop a number of times, with the tubular chassis and cage being built on a jigs, no where did i see anything but smooth consistent runs, from door frames, the cage and the tubular chassis. This is my motorsport first hand experience of Mig welds in chassis and cages. (they've moved site, right near my house so i'll get some pics of their work)

Chris those welds on the orange cage are tig welds, and not the tidiest...

 

Can we get a yawn smiley?

As stated previously by Hamish, when the cages where involved in destruction tests or accidents it was not the welds that failed! IE. They were stronger than the tubing. This would suggest that the welds are sufficient.

And as Chris has stated, there are standards laid down by the FIA / MSA with regard to the installation of cages, materials used and quality of welding. I presume by the fact that these cars are competing, it would suggest they are up to spec.

I do look forward to seeing you fit a cage Jools, I will want to see full continuous welds round all the tube intersections.

And having worked in a number of engineering fields over the years, I have been fortunate to see a lot of high end techniques used in manufacturing and construction. Some requiring certification through special testing procedures and load testing certificates.
I also had the privilege of working with some engineering uni graduates that knew it all, but unfortunately were sheit in the real world.

 

I think its quite clear you're not going to see reason here, as your superior knowledge is evidently infallible. If there was adequate access to all the areas, then it would have been done in one run (infact, a couple of areas are) but this was not going to be possible, so, knowing that the differences in strength in this application in minimal, it was pulsed. The welds have penetrated brilliantly in all areas that can be seen, so its pretty safe to say it has all round. It is perfectly strong enough. If/ when it goes, it will fail around the joint itself, not much can be done about that. A constant bead returns the same results.

You calling it lazy, crap etc is totally out of order, but just goes to show your general persona I suppose.

I'm just waiting to hear next stance taken by Jools to dismiss, yet again, further photos from Chris even though you were told this was the case in the first reply. I can guess though that its still crap in your eyes and I await to see the cage inserted into your car as if God himself had installed it... as well all know me makes the best rally cars


Edit: I see indeed we have had a reply from the man himself in the time its taken me to reply in between work. I think its about time now we maybe divide and remove the thread to somewhere more appropriate as its more become a how to make excuses, regardless of facts thread. Amusing though, and definitely a keeper, but not here I feel. Thread title 'Feed the Troll maybe'?

 

Yea that is interesting that tests have been undertaken with both styles of welding, who did this and under what circumstance, like butt welding tubes together and testing in tension? And like you've said blobbed against runs the strength was basically the same then its all good and thats shut me up.

Your not going to let that one drop are you, i mentioned crap and lazy once! Remember this is my personal opinion, out of order or not is down to you. general persona, yar im a massive ****!

Any certified cage will be welded with continuous welds like Custom Cages do if you watch their video. Skilled they are and the cages are God like, this is the standard I will be copying.
So its not impossible!

 

You have been told this over a page ago!! Thats why you've been trying to dismiss M-sports workmanship, remember? Re-read the thread.

Oh, and I guess Custom Cages won't be certifying my cage then like the others

Oh, and you've said crap, lazy, pikey, bodge more than once. You've also said it not knowing the facts either, and are wrong. They aren't perfect, in visual terms, but by no means what you call them.

 

Thread now split at the request of the OP. I've split it from one of my comments, so we've not got a contentious split point.

Jools - we've had this before with other posters (cough, RobT). You have tried to take the line that the obligation lies not with you, but with others to prove the case, ie the subject matter of discussion is default wrong, unless proved to be right.

I'm going to turn this on its head, right now, and ask you to help with explaining technically why the technique is wrong, and in the absence of that information and anecotal evidence then ergo the technique is deemed correct.

All, as you know, Club GTI is not about silly internet squabbles (unless we're talking about # of valves, in which case game on!), but it really is a thinking forum. The collective want to come out this thread with more knowledge than they started with, so anything that adds to that wider understanding is a very good thing

That is why I have raised the debate here.