T45 & stress relief + pulse MIG welding on cages

Discussion in 'Track Prep & Tech' started by A.N. Other, Mar 13, 2011.

  1. Andy947 Forum Addict

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    I'd agree that the costs would be much much higher, it costs a phenomenal amount of money to run weld procedures and qualifications and the associated welder qualification.
     
  2. Andy947 Forum Addict

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    Interesting article

    http://www.fia.com/en-GB/automotive/issue-16/institute/Pages/article-15.aspx

     
  3. danster Forum Addict

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    Remember that bolt in cages are still acceptable.
    If you check the regulations on how they can be mounted it is quite surprising.
    Basically 3 x M8 ISO grade 8.8 bolts on the mounting feet of front legs and main hoop.
    Safety Devices bolt in cages incorporate clamped intersection between the various cage members using 2 x M10 bolts.
     
  4. Andy947 Forum Addict

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  5. Jools Forum Member

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    Okie doke, what I think is wrong with the stop start, blobbing technique is that lack of penetration, usually with the materials being joined, but sometimes with the blob next to it. If super high volts/amps are used on a Mig then these blobs stay hot and almost flow into each other, this i feel is acceptable, but the picture i quoted of the X door bars, the blobs were spaced to far apart, the amps/volts weren't high enough (the welds should sit more flat on a butt and more concave on a tee fillet) Just read the link above which was quite interesting.I also feel that a consistent weld with the right settings is stronger than a start stop technique. But, im not a coded welder in Mig'ing steel tubes, and am still learning the ropes 6 years on. I didn't mean to be such an **** about it all, just felt that my point wasn't being taken seriously. Who on here has any welding qualifications (and what level) who have welded a cage in, and what are their thoughts.
    :thumbup:
     
  6. tshirt2k

    tshirt2k Forum Junkie

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    It looked to me like those welds were a bit raised. But it doesn't mean there isn't much penetration. I find this technique is good for thin panels as it helps stop burning holes.

    It does look neater than a seam though but seems would be hard on tubes.
     
  7. Willber Forum Member

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    To be honest I have been doing quite a lot of welding this weekend and I often use the stop start/blob technique as it is easier than running a bead whilst working in confined space. I also used this technique when welding in my filler cap as it is important to keep the heat down to avoid panel warping and blowing holes.

    I would say that the penetration on those welds would be more than adequate although without seeing inside the tube it is impossible to say. This is not meant to imply that I doubt M-Sport or M-Sport employee's skills in anyway.

    I welded up a harness bar for my friends MX-5 and also used this technique, it was possible to see the penetration afterwards and we also did a home-brew destruction test which proved satisfactory (although a bit sketchy!)

    Just my thoughts as an amateur/hobbyist.
     
  8. vw_singh Events Team Paid Member

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    In the ukwelder forum link, the issue of penetration is mentioned. But then they talk about using high current welders ranging 250A. This would allow short bursts to successfully penetrate previous spots of weld and in effect creating a continuous weld that looks like lots of single spots. However, I feel that this is well out of scope for hobby welding equipment and points towards 3-phase electrics and industrial migs. I will probably stick with attempting continuous runs on thicker stuff as I don't think my Clarke 160 will be up to this if I tried.

    Gurds
     
  9. MUSHY 16V

    MUSHY 16V Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Gurds some industrial migs have a stitch timer to do this
    but as you say i would only use it on thin sheet for thicker tube you want a continuous weld

    i did x ray interpretation in my last job 90% of which was looking at welds in pipes of aircraft parts
    it is scary now litte fusion or penetration some weld can have yet look perfectly good on the out side
     
  10. G60Dub

    G60Dub Forum Member

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    Thread hijack just to prove a point... You see the 'stack of dimes' welding on many a Mountain Bike frame and also the smooth welds on 'Dale frames... The former I've had on almost all of my frames from GT to Rock Lobster to Orange all which have been beaten to within an inch of their life and not one non crash related failure yet. Chuck in one hardtail a 14 stone rider and many a 6-10 ft dropoff and you have a serious amount of cyclic impact loading. Never mind the cycling companies liability - if it didn't work there wouldn't be many bike companies left!
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2011
  11. Jools Forum Member

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    All bike frames are Tig welded, being steel or aluminium, (of course you have the old skool brazed frames) so the stack of dimes is just what happens when you dip cold filler rod into the moulten pool.

    Just yapped to a guy at work, he mentions cold lapping when using the stop start technique, where the filler material isn't properly fusing to the previous "blobs"...
     
  12. Squible Forum Member

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    Totally unhelpful, but just to say again, Jools is wrong, all bike frames are not tig'd or brazed :lol: Given, a large large majority are though. Got to love your blind (well, hazed) persistance though!
     
  13. Jools Forum Member

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    Squib, why not say "yea most bike frames are but you forgot about blah blah blah being ally mig'd" for example?
    Instead of a useless post about my blind persistance and that i'm wrong!? Explain and show me why then!
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2011
  14. danster Forum Addict

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    OFF TOPIC!

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Squible Forum Member

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    I've tried that tactic before remember, and nothing came of it as you were automatically right. Hence not wasting my time to try again. You still haven't given any worthy evidence to invalidate the use of pulsing yet either, when theres been overwhelming amounts to show you otherwise.

    Oh, just an update on this, another pulsed sample is off to Custom Cages to fail its stress test under Jools' 'theory'.
     
  16. Dave

    Dave *Very Smart* Pedantic Old Fart Paid Member

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    My titanium bike frame's is made with tube bonded into investment cast lugs!

    Really off topic now folks! I only did it to show how much I am enjoying reading this thread.

    Keep up the good work you all!
     
  17. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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  18. jamesa Forum Junkie

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    Thanks ... a good read that.
     
  19. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    Just going to pop this debate to bed ;)

    Take one works-prepared car:

    [​IMG]

    With all the right stampings:

    [​IMG]

    And the picture which speaks VOLUMES!!!

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Squible Forum Member

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    Should have put this up a while ago too:

    [​IMG]

    Leads to...

    [​IMG]

    :thumbup:
     

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