The A59 Engine and its Technology... the full story

Discussion in '16-valve' started by HPR, Oct 7, 2015.

  1. HPR

    HPR Administrator Admin

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    Foto-BYOF4MIP-D.jpg


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    About me


    From the age of 15 i went to some car slaloms and circuit racing events with a friend who's parents had an Audi/NSU dealership....
    By 1978 I started racing with a Scirocco Mk1 in club racing. We learned things the hard way....as info was not that easy available as nowadays. So I read everything I could find.... and e
    ver since I have been collecting information about the technical aspects of Volkswagen and VAG in Motorsport I've seen most of these early race and rally cars in action, roughly between 1972 and 1984 and later picked up the VW vibe again from 1995 till now. In that long period i spoke a lot interesting people such as:
    Siegfried Spiess, Mr Muller (Tuning) , Rolf Nothelle, Jurgen Misczyk, Alfons Hohenester, Heinz Lehmann, Mr Kolb ( MTK), Henri Lotterer, Thomas Kuster, Roland Hurlebaus ( Sorg) to name a few


    Much of my hard earned VW/VAG Motorsport knowledge was shared with one time friend Chris Eyre with who i had done together an article on the Polo WRC car in Volkswagen Driver magazine. after talking for some time about the A59 project Chris was eager to write an article on the A59 car. Chris found the car at Autohaus Konrad Schmidt, only after I had told him there was beside SMS also a VW dealership. After an equal amount of extensive research by both of us,
    a trip was made to Cadolzburg, Germany. On March 7th 2014 at 9.00 AM we meet Mr Harald Peelen at Autohaus Konrad Schmidt / SMS engineering and we spend ca 7 hours there...

    Sadly next morning back at home.... i was told by Chris Eyre in these exact words... I do the writing and the photographing and you do the doors... well i showed him the door out ...


    Some time later, after much research I made a trip to Germany and met Norbert Kreyer near the Nurburgring for a chat about the A59 engine, a project he did 22 years ago, He clearly remembered all the details and here they are.


    The A59 engine

    At Volkswagen the plan was made to enter the World Rally Championship from the 1994 Monte Carlo Rally onward and go in 1995 for nothing less as the WRC title !
    January 17th 1992, the Product and Strategy Commission at Volkswagen headquarters in Wolfsburg, Germany decided to produce 2500 cars as a homologation special, as it was understood to be a minimum requirement by the FIA to enter into WRC.

    With only 2 years to prepare, rally expertise was found at SMS
    ( Schmidt Motor Sport )

    Who had run Audi Quatttro`s and MG Metro 6R4 cars in rally


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    Audi V8 3.6L cars were run in DTM (1990- 1991)

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    A specialist team was formed consisting:

    Herbert Horntrich ( VW-co-ordinator),
    Eduard Weidl, VW-Motorsport chassis specialist ( btw also on the Polo WRC)
    Karl Heinz Goldstein being a drivetrain specialist and an ex VW -Motorsport director)
    Konrad Schmidt of SMS,
    Norbert Kreyer as engine specialist


    A59 key people wm.png ?

    How the A59 engine project began

    Foto-SMXBCUGX-D.jpg

    In 1992 Norbert Kreyer, had just spend 3 years at Toyota (TTE/TMG) in Koln, Germany to develop the Celica ST185 engine into a competitive engine package, and had decided to start his own company`` Motoren Instand Setzung `` (MIS) with business-partner Ulrich Monninghoff.
    The company was based in Wehr, only a few miles away from Niederzissen where Zakspeed are based and were Norbert Kreyer had spend many years of his career.


    http://www.clubgti.com/showthread.php?280357-Zakspeed-Capri-Turbo

    http://www.clubgti.com/showthread.php?280799-About-Norbert-Kreyer-MIS-and-SMS-A59-engine

    Volkswagen and SMS contacted Norbert Kreyer to design and build an engine that allowed VW to win the World Rally Championship. This would become the first project for his new company MIS.
    Initial an 827 type engine was dyno tested, but proved``` to small`` to build a competitive package, so a clean sheet design engine was on the table... it would become the A59 engine.

    Work started in his home town Niederzissen with a team of 4 engine builders, the names of the engine builders were: Ulrich Monninghoff, Achim Christ, Gunter Heinisch, and Jurgen Jungklaus.
    Dyno testing was carried out by Manfred Malluan, Ewald Adams is doing the machining work and Rainer Bley is Workshop Foreman.


    A first batch of engine parts was ordered for 8 prototype engines.


    According Harald Peelen of SMS, who reckoned that 10- 15 blocks were made and that Lehmann Motorentechnik still has 5- 6 engines.....but its also known that some years ago Heinz Lehmann couldn't get hold of new blocks/ heads...for another Lemans project .....it leaves to think, As 1 engine is in the A59 car in Wolfsburg, it leaves only 7 engines to do 5 Lemans 24 hour races in the 2000-2004 period and some races in South Africa with a couple Audi A4 Touring cars but now fitted with Normally Aspirated A59 engines.....certainly food for thought.... Although its unlikely that extra blocks and cylinder heads were made afterwards.


    Only 2 prototype ``road `` spec engines were build and used a fabricated exhaust manifold but for production and grA cars this would become a cast item.


    The first engine ran on the dyno by end April 1993. The engine worked just as intended and showed good throttle response and ran to its 7000 rpm redline. That first engine made 275 Ps @ 6000 rpm and 367 Nm @3500 rpm.


    The engine in the A59 car from Wolfsburg is fitted with one of these engines in 'road' spec


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    I was told the exact specs for internal part of the engine and can share with you now.

    A59_Engine Techsheet_ap3.png

    A59 Component Suppliers.png



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    Extra info

    A similar oil pump as on a Audi 5 cyl is used ( Crescent oil pump)

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    Wastegate originate from an Audi Sport Quattro ( Infact its a Porsche 930 item)

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    The Demise of the A59 project.

    Unfortunately the VW A59 project was binned halfway 1993 by Ferdinand Piech. Volkswagen car sales were far below targets and Volkswagen was not in the best financial position. Initially 2500 cars would be needed for homologation. However it later became clear that 5000 cars should be made to comply to FIA Group A rules. With a price tag at the time of 80,000 DM
    (ca 40.000) it would be no easy task to sell these cars either.


    It was not the end of VW /VAG engine development by MIS as the following years early stages of development were done on the VW 16V/20V Kitcar engines and Skoda Octavia WRC engines



    A special Thanks go to:

    Norbert Kreyer and Harald Peelen, as this tread and a number other related treads, would have not been possible without all their help.

    And ClubGTI staff, Toyotec, rubjonny and MUSHY 16V who helped in compiling these treads.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2020
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  2. Tristan

    Tristan Paid Member Paid Member

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    Phenomenonal thread.
     
  3. Sirguydo

    Sirguydo Fastest milkman in the West Paid Member

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    Brilliant read thanks very much Hugo :clap:
     
  4. HPR

    HPR Administrator Admin

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    Last edited: Oct 7, 2015
  5. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    I tagged Neil of Autometrix on facebook to have a read of this.

    All,

    Behind the scenes we have been working and researching this sort of content to make it presentable for you all to read.

    While that aspect is very important, Club GTI wishes to thank Hugo for actually travelling around Europe to speak direct to the people who were involved in the A59 and HPT16 projects, capturing the information we have here exclusively on the forum.

    He is a true motorhead and gent. He did all that just to share with Club GTI :clap:
     
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  6. Sirguydo

    Sirguydo Fastest milkman in the West Paid Member

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    Just noticed it's a Alfing crankshaft :thumbup:

    I've got a Alfing crankshaft from my oettinger engine [:D]
     
  7. MUSHY 16V

    MUSHY 16V Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Thanks Hugo
     
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  8. HPR

    HPR Administrator Admin

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    Last edited: Nov 2, 2015
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  9. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    Thanks for making that summary Hugo.

    Just shout if you need more assistance with other contributions.
     
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  10. skywalker38 Forum Member

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    found some pics about this one as well
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    Last edited: Apr 4, 2016
  11. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    Cheers Michal!
     
  12. erreesse New Member

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    Hi all,
    Thanks for this very valuable info.
    I've seen that the Beetle GRC and the Polo RX, both have an engine with B&S of 86mm. Is it based on the "A59" ?
     
  13. HPR

    HPR Administrator Admin

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    The rallycross engine are complete different to the A59 engine
    The Beetle GRC was built at VWM Hannover and initial a 1600cc Polo WRC engine ( 2013 spec) was used as basis, altough with a bigger turbo and a bigger air restrictor Afaik bore and stroke were kept the same as development time was very short.... and with only 1600 cc / 544 hp they could run the cars with less weight
    Later on there might have been evolutions with a bigger bore ... but that would indicate these were 2.0L units

    This WRC engine is a clean sheet design racing engine, following the FIA ``Global Race Engine / GRE `` concept ....


    The Polo RX cars were built at Marklund motorsport in Sweden and engines are based on FSI 2.0 engines ( similar as in Polo/ Fabia S2000, altough with a steel block )
    Engines are built by Trollspeed / Sweden
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2016
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  14. erreesse New Member

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  15. vw_singh Events Team Paid Member

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    Thanks Hugo, I really enjoyed reading through this thread again. A lot of knowledge and experience shared.

    Gurds
     
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  16. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    As per Hugo. No.

    86 x 86 mm 'perfect square' engines can be made from any block in theory with a bespoke crank, rod ratios, and piston with desired pin heights.

    Bespoke parts like that are not a problem to procure, test and develop for a manufacturer.
     
  17. HPR

    HPR Administrator Admin

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    13256452_122497084834441_3384843171633927871_n.jpg
    Above the EKS ( Ekstrom) Audi engine
    Transverse engine install
    Engine by Audi sport / Lehmann based on FSI / TFSI engine


    13246359_122497311501085_6217846002420264697_o.jpg

    Here the FSI/ TFSI engine as used by team Kristofferson, team Marklund ( both Polo) and in the Audi A1 of Larson (Engines built Trolspeed)
    There is already a few years talk that engines should be mounted in the same way as in the roadcar, so that means transverse
    But iirc there was a period stipulated hat they were allowed to continue..

    Also there was some paddock talk that there is alot going on on the engine front .... other engine builder ....and with the teams...
    Rumour is that EKS Audi would no longer be in rallycross, and team Kristofferson would go back to circuit racing... so it will be up to team Marklund to be the driving force for VW in world rallycross

    In Global Rallycross ( USA ) the 1.6 engine was no longer up to speed with the 2.0 engines ... and weight benefit could not compensate enough
    i guess that its still a WRC engine with larger bore and stroke ...as the basic dimensions of a ``Global race engine`` allow this ....
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2016
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  18. erreesse New Member

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    Hi, Hugo & Toyotec,

    You're both a lot smarter than I am, but for the FSi/T(F)Si block we measure a cylinder center to center of 88mm. So with a bore of 86mm ........ only 2mm meat !! ??

    Have a nice day,
    Philippe
     
  19. HPR

    HPR Administrator Admin

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    I didnt say that the above cars/ engines use a 86 mm bore, these are the engines as used in Fia World rallycross ( world championship ) , not to be confused with Global rallycross ( USA )
    Only the USA global rallycross cars seem to use now blocs with 86 x 86 mm bore & stroke and to do that they need to use the global race engine platform as basis, in other words a WRC engine ( 2013 - 2017 spec )

    Marklund Motorsport plan for 2017 is to use a Global race engine....with a c-c distance between bores of 96 mm ....ive been told they can go as big as 88- 89 mm bore... cylinder head with massive flow figures aswell....... pictures below; the setup as used till now with a VW engine block and the 2017 Global race engine ...made in Sweden
     

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    Last edited: Nov 13, 2016
  20. erreesse New Member

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    Hugo,
    Sorry for the misunderstanding,
    Thank you very much for all the data you gave me, but the question in #12 was ................So the engines are not A59.
    Now I understand that:
    -the base of these "big block" engines are not made by VAG
    -the bore depends on the wall thickness of the liners (Ferrari style ?)

    Again thanks and sorry Hugo

    Philippe
     

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