Here is a short video of me driving at hullavington yesterday. The conditions were cold (7oc) and the track was slightly damp in places but mainly had a dry line. The tyres are new Federal 595RS-R's, Brand new for the day but had a few sessions on them already. Tyre pressures are 30 front cold, 32 rear cold. I was playing with them through the day and whatever I changed I could not get rid of the tyre squeal! I went very low, 22 at one point to try that out and nearly lost the back end coming into the fast run-through part. Shame I didnt catch that one on video! Can anyone advise me on what I need to look into setup wise to get rid of the squeal? The way I see it is that Im losing grip when it squeals, however it does not feel like it as it grips well, But could be better. Im running an Quaife LSD, however its quite bumpy on the slow corner before the long straight and Im have trouble putting the power down. It bounces out of the corner despite quite a firm suspension setting, Do I need to go softer? Any advice please, The car feels good on track, But I have no idea on the setup. However it was still good enough to pass a few cars [video=youtube;UaP42EVjAn8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaP42EVjAn8[/video]
You will have to provide a bit more info Mat, What suspension is on there & how have you got it setup. Also, what is the track surface like?
Sure, no problem. Suspension is AVO GTX coilovers, Damping set to mid-hard on both front and rear. Its not very low due to wheel cleanance issues. Front camber is about 1.8deg,The max it would go. Standard on the rear A little toe in on the front, new to me as i had it set at standard most of the time. Track is a good sticky surface being an MOD runway. A little bumpy in places but mostly smooth.
OK, I have a few thoughts, these are constructive, please don`t take them negatively, they aren`t meant that way. STOP feeding the wheel. On some corners, you are positioning your hands before the corner and winding the lock on to get your hands at 9-3 again. It means you are applying the lock quickly. If you keep your hands in one place, it helps you be smoother and apply the lock slower. I know this because I used to do exactly the same. Its easy to say and I don`t always do it myself, but when it starts squealing, UNWIND the steering a fraction, then reapply. Soften the front damping. Maybe Stiffen the rear. A mistake many people make is to set everything to `hard`, cos thats what we think is fastest. It may feel it, but compliant damping is what you want. DON`T fit a front ARB, that won`t help. IMO. Ideally, you want to rear to be stiffer, it`ll slide about more easily and thus help the front turn, but for a novice, thats not what really what you want. Go slower INTO the corner. Sounds obvious, but going in quick means you aren`t turning as much as you want, then you are waiting to apply the power. A slow in, fast out approach would help, you`d be on the power earlier and would carry the speed down the next straight. You`ve got a VR6 up front, everything is going to be a compromise... lol You are smooth with your other inputs, that`s a good base to work with. I`ll try and dig out some of my old videos that show me making the same mistakes and HOPEFULLY a more recent video where I don`t lol I`d look at elongating the front strut top hole, or fitting a camber bolt so you can get a bit more negative camber onto the front.
Interesting comments. Matt what spring rates are you running ? and what adjustment do you have. Is it just soft/hard on clicks, or low/high speed adjustment with bump and rebound. Without knowing the spring rates its impossible to work much out and give any meaningful advice! But i agree on Niges comment about how you shuffle the wheel. Something you should never do, one of my pet hates. 9-3 is good. Also you should never change the right hand position it should always be connected, always stay at 3' and if you need a bit extra use your left hand to get it and ease up with the right and hold on with a thumb. Especially important if you do loose the back end at high speed. You need to know where straight is instinctively to catch it. On the day in question you have to remember it was 7 degrees and damp etc. So grip levels will be low, turn grip and traction/grip out of corners will be reduced due to lack of heat in the tyres and a less than ideal surface conditions. Ideally you need a soft compound for this. Also i dont know what hullavington is like. Id advise getting on to slicks in general. Its seems to be a big jump for some people but you have a cage so no issues there and are actually much more forgiving than you would think. In ref to the federals i gather a lot of people get tyre squeal and the general opinion is they are good but there is better out there. For me there are only 2 tyres on the 1b list id use. Yoko A048R and the Dunlop DZO3. In my opinion everything else is **** apart from the collection of rally/moulded slick tyres which are available. Personal opinion only. On the car I think its a combination of things you needs to adjust but here is what i do first without any other knowledge. Front and rear camber. -1.8 on the front is no where near enough and i bet your rear is about -1. -3F and -2R would be usefull base settings to work from. Do you have photos of you car in the corners, you can learn a lot from just looking at these and see what your cambers are doing. Also how do you tyres wear. Toe settings. Get some toe out on her, toe in is no good for track use = slow but safe -5 minutes per wheel toe out is a good starting point, we run upto -15 minutes per wheel depending on circuit. Have you had the car corner weighted yet. One of the most important things to do but not before doing the 2 things above. A car needs a good balance whatever else you do. With the right info VR's can handle very well. There are not many about who have cracked it but there is a couple of different ways of doing it. If i can help i will.
Just looked at your build thread and id say that the car is too front heavy as well. Wind the suspension down at the rear a few turns.
You see thats what I`ve always read / thought, but when I put some toe-out on mine, its just vague. Steering ahead isn`t sharp, turn in doesn`t give good feedback and inspires NO confidence. I switch back to toe-in and it feels better. I know Gurds has found the same.
Thanks Nige! I never really knew i was feeding the wheel untill i watched the videos, Its not something i do on the road thats for sure. Im not sure on the thickness but i have a red front ARB, Maybe i need to remove this? Also need more camber on the front! I was going to get a remap done but had a few problems on the day, Not got round to it again yet. The trouble with the V6 is it takes a while to pickup so its not really fast out of a corner, It takes a while to spin up and get going. By that time the car in front has gained some on me and start the whole process over againlol Haha yes, He was holding me up really. Backed off on the straights more than once in that video and thats only a snippet of what i have. Thanks Mike. I will try and answer your questions. Spring rates, No idea sorry. Just dug out my AVO invoice and it does not say anything. They are 2.25" but i very much doubt that helps. The kit was for the standard MK3 VR6. The adjustments i have are height (Obviously) and damping front and rear. There are no clicks on the front, Just a nut you turn with a nob and there is quite a bit of adjustment there. I have had it mostly set to high but have been backing it off lately. The rear's are 16 clicks, I have these quite soft at the moment but there does not seem to be a massive difference between hard or soft for the rear. Yes, -1.8 front. The rears are standard, I think -1.3 rings a bell from getting it aligned last time. I will get a die grinder and make the hole a little bigger so i can get more on the front. I have some shims to use on the rear, Just need to work out how to use them! Here are a few pictures of a sharp corner, In the first one it looks like im understeering out of the imagelol http://www.mgphoto.co.uk/mp_client/...size=thumbnails&thumbpagenum=1&eventid=105198 I have not had the car corner weighted, Do you have any ideas where i can get this done locally? Thanks for your help all!
Toe out will always feel a bit wandery and not sharp but is ultimately quicker. You should find you can turn in harder, carry more speed into the corner and also helps with 4 drifitng mid corner to exit. Its a bit like a understeering set up chasis, feels a lot safer than an oversteering chassis but is slower. Also you want to centralise the steering rack first.
You need to find out the rates, they are probably no good for track use but at least they are for a VR6. It should be marked on the springs themselves, until we know this its impossible to set the rest of the car up correctly. Ring AVO tomorrow and ask they will have it on file if you cant find it on the springs. Check the front dampers again. Mark where they are then wind then full soft then back to full hard to see exactly how much you need to adjust them. TBH they should click into each setting id check this. Also id run them at 35% meduim soft then adjust from there I thought the mk2 had camber adjustment bolts on the front of it, the mk2 championship cars used to run -3 on the front. You do need some adjustable top mounts, that would be high on my list of things to do. Also id get those metal arches cut out and bond the plastic covers back over the top and get the car lower to the ground, fit ball joint extenders and flip the steering arms for level wishbones and steering arms. Dan at TRD would corner weight the car for you if required, id pop along as well to cause trouble lol
I havent but heard very average things about them. Never heard of Maxxis. Im really fussy about what i run on. After spending many years on slicks nothing else compares. did some races afew years ago on toyo R888's and hated them. Great for fast road but thats it.
Good advice from Mike. Video looks good! I also used to feed the wheel (maybe I still do in some corners). I am not sure there is anything too wrong with it to be honest, as long as you can grip and react quickly enough when needed. I am doing it less as I get more confident though. I think the reason I used to do it was I felt I had a better grip of the wheel if I kept my arms in the 9-3 position, which is why it could be confidence. It may also suggest a seating position problem - if you cannot properly grip the top of the wheel? I fitted a spacer.
Use the smaller shank bolts from VW for more camber. -3 Camber and a touch toe out is a good starting point on a MK2 in my experience but it is horses for courses.
I will find out on Monday, Had a house viewing today so was tied up for the morning. I will also find out the amount of movement I have on the dampers. I dont have camber bolts in, Just normal MK2 ones so this is a nice easy fix to get the -3 that we are after, But I guess it would be better to go all out for adjustable top mounts? What ones would you suggest and would they work with my AVO's? I have spent my afternoon reading about the ball joint extenders and they get mixed reviews, Mainly because of the bump steer and the problems people are having fitting them. I also see some people having trouble with big brakes as the rubber boot touches the disc, I have 305mm brembo's so this may be an issue for me also. Would I see a benefit if I was to just fit adjustable top mounts and not the ball joint extenders? I had a quick look at the wishbones today and they are nearly horizontal, Its very close but any lower and it was start getting worse. I have cut most of the arches away as it is but the R888's are quite fat and were rubbing a bit, Maybe I need to cut more!lol It just seems like Im chucking money at this car. I dont want to spend a massive amount but I want to go round corners faster! Thanks again for the help
Is it running mk3/passat wide track, or regular 4stud gti? If standard then Get it widetracked, you'll get the camber then!!
Hmm, Good pointlol TBH im not sure! I bought it with the old 12V VR6 installed and its using the MK3 subframe so i think it would be, But seeing as i can only get about -1.8 on the front is putting doubts in my mind. Is there an easy way to check?
