What camber, castor and toe-in settings do you run on your Track Mk2 Golf?

Discussion in 'Track Prep & Tech' started by Mook, Aug 2, 2010.

  1. Mook

    Mook Forum Member

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    I currently run neutral toe-in (a hang-over from when I ran an R32 as a track toy) and 2 degrees of negative camber.

    Castor is standard, although I run Avo coilovers and the car is lowered on these, so it's not really standard, but I can't adjust it!

    Top mount adjusters are going on next month so I can get it corner weighted, the castor set and full alignment done.

    So what camber, castor and toe-in do you run on your track toys? I'm not bothered about issues with tramlining on the road - it's a track toy which I drive to and from circuits, so I can live with that ;)

    Cheers
     
  2. M7R

    M7R CGTI Regional Host

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    am am in the same situation as you, so my starting base will by my mk1 setting which was -1.5deg camber and tracked to 0 which seemed to work well when everything was tight and poly bushed.

    at the mo I think mine is running what ever stock toe is and 0.5deg of camber as the last owner set it up... its not a brill drive tending ti under steer..alot.

    I will keep an eye on this and see what other folks say to use (I also have the issue of wide tyre limiting the amount of camber... so I think will get about -1.5 tops)
     
  3. mk2sp Forum Member

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    Castor angle is as imprortant as camber and toe angle.

    What kind of circuit are u going to drive it?

    If it is a high speed corner track then more caster angle will bring better results than more camber angle. If it is a closed one then reduce caster for better flexibility.

    Each way, Mk2s can only run static camber (from bolts) around 2 degrees. Best thing though is to set dynamic camber (from top mount). If you cannot afford an "every track-different set-up" procedure i would strongly recommend to set your

    caster angle at around 4-5 degrees
    camber angle 2 degrees
    toe angle 0 degrees (or slightly open (toe out) for better initial turn-in)
    225 wide tyres on 8 inches width wheel

    Do not worry about the 2 degrees camber because caster angle transforms into camber through the bend ;) . Originally Mk2s have 1.5 degrees of caster. If u go 5 degrees of caster then 2 degrees of camber is a very good value for a vehicle with NO motorsport chassis :thumbup: .

    I race my Mk2 on a high speed corner circuit and use
    8 degrees of caster (built adjustable wishbones)
    2.5 degrees of camber
    a bit of toe out
    slightly changed ackerman geometry
    235/610/17 slicks
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2010
  4. ryanp Forum Member

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    How is the castor adjusted? i've had a quick look on the net but might be searching wrong!! my widetrack 5 stud Mk2 has some serious camber so i need to put some smaller bolts in!!
     
  5. mk2sp Forum Member

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    If you have a Mk3 16V/VR6 control arms-hubs then you are at 4-4.5 degrees of castor angle. If you are on standard Mk2 16V ones then you are only running 1.3-1.5 degrees.

    Usually, u can adjust castor angle by installing adjustable top mounts.
    Best thing to do though is adjustable control arms.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2014
  6. LeftcoastTigger Paid Member Paid Member

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    Mk2sp, how much have you lowered your racer, are your wishbones at standard GTI/VR6 lengths, what is the width and et of your 17" rims, what scrub radius do you prefer, and how far outboard were the strut upper mounts moved in order to achieve the above scrub radius?

    I plan to lower my 1990 Jetta 16v around 20mm, fit GTI/VR6 wishbones, hubs, & axles, a 22mmd MkIII TD or similar front ARB, an additional 24mmd rear ARB, then 205 - 55 x 15 tyres on either 15" x 6" et 35 rims or 15" x 7" et 41 rims, and suspect the strut upper mounts will need to be moved 15mm or so outward in order to achieve the 35mm or thereabouts scrub radius I understand to be the best compromise

    The car will be used primarily for back roads twisties

    Thanks in advance!
     
  7. mk2sp Forum Member

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    That's a nice and interesting post :):thumbup:.

    Well... My Mk2 is lowered with the well-known ball joint extenders so that the wishbone sits at more than 90degrees when vehicle is flat. Truth is i should build them longer cause there is plenty of room that 17inches wheels offer and could lower the front much more (this will need new fenders though[:^(]) .
    http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss70/mk2sp/Wishbone2.jpg

    Wheels are 17x9 45ET.

    No front anti-roll bar, as from tests, i have noticed that front has more grip inside circuit.

    OEM rear one... Can be upgraded to what driving style fits though (but definately front ARB must go!). When in circuit, there is no need for a front anti-roll bar in a Mcpherson strut suspension as it does nothing due to stiff suspension (stiffer than rally where anti-roll bar can be used).

    Wishbones are adjustable in length (track, camber) and in castor angle. In max length, they can be 8cm longer/each side than OEM Mk2 GTI 16V ones. But kingpin inclination value goes very high. Hubs are OEM Mk2 GTI 16V ones. So with a certain wheel size, scrub radius may vary.

    Now...long discussion on the scrub radius which i am happy to do :thumbup:. The golden rule for SCRUB RADIUS is:

    On front-wheel-drive vehicles, positive scrub radius causes toe-in, and negative causes toe-out.

    So, with upper/top mount set at max camber gain (high king-pin inclination), static camber set at 1.7degrees and 7cm longer wishbone at each side (thus longer track), Et 45, scrub radius is around 15mm.

    I am quite happy from it now but i know that it can do much better. Try finding the "much better planet" is all the magic in vehicle dynamics :lol:;).

    I would suggest ball joint extenders for your car also (they are not expensive), lower the car and watch the wishbone to be set at more than 90 degrees (watch the susp travel and the spring stiffness). 15x8 wheels on 225 for track, 15x7 on 205 for road on OEM suspension hardwares. Values of 35mm scrub radius is a nice compromise for all around use, especially for tight roads where the car is more stable and produces toe-in which sets the vehicle for the next bend.
    In high mph bends though it builds bump steer. I would prefer values close to 0mm. Lowering the scrub radius you get a more unstable front end, a lighter steering wheel but better vehicle in turn in. Kingpin inclination and high Et wheels can give low scrub radius, very good for good friction roads. But the general rule is that low scrub radius reduce bump steer.

    Hope i helped...
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2010
  8. Crispy 8V CGTI Committee - Club Secretary Admin

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    Another question I'm more intresent in at the moment is settings for the rear.

    on the front on the mk1 is about 4-4' 30min caster, 1' 20-1'30 mins on camber and near equal toe, rear is 1'30mins camber/ couple minutes toeing in at the rear (not sure how much exactly!)

    at high speeds (over 90mph) theres a very slight wander, and moderate speed cornering over 70MPH it seems to feels like it's wanting to oversteer
    I'm planning to get it properbly checked in work at weekend as I'm the germaty/chassis speclist. but all adjuctments then happen at home with string measurments!

    Mk2sp which tracks you play on, I only know Megara track, Athens. You know of anything on in first weekend of September on to watch, or know if the athens tuning show is on, there websites not been updated in years!
     
  9. LeftcoastTigger Paid Member Paid Member

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    Mk2sp, many thanks for your most informative and generous response:thumbup:

    Naturally, it has prompted a few more questions[:D]

    With the exception of the KYB gas shocks already fitted, I'm unlikely to replace standard VW suspension components as I suspect parts bin selections from suitable models plus some subtle tweaks will more economically and reliably suit my purposes

    Whilst I've not personally experimented with different spring rates, shocks, ARB's, etc etc, study suggests that a combination of comparatively soft springs with stout ARB's is better suited to the rapidly changing traction, camber and undulating surfaces of the public back roads I regularly drive at responsible speeds [:^(] than the stiff springs, shocks, and sometimes absent ARB's so effectively used by a skilled and competitive track driver

    I expect to lower the front through a combination of extending the front strut to steering hub mounts upwards by welding additional metal strips in place and drilling a further two 12mmd holes on 16mm centres for the strut/hub mounting bolts (providing a choice of lowering by 16 or 32mm), then adjust the ride height by selecting from oem Mk II and III springs of different rates, and aftermarket spring caps

    The rear will be lowered by welding extensions onto the bottom of the beam's shock absorber mounting structures, drilling two new shock mounting holes at 16mm centres, and again substituting oe springs plus aftermarket spring caps as required

    This method should preserve the current suspension travel preferred for undulating roads, and should not overtax the suspension components given the 20 to 30mm lowering intended; if it tends to bottom out then I'd be inclined to try stiffer shock absorber bump rubbers before stiffer springs

    I've already mentioned fitting a 24mmd front ARB from a MkIII TDI, and believe the torsional resistance of the standard, integral 20mmd rear beam ARB can be almost doubled as follows:

    Whilst I've not experimented by removing a beam assy and mounting it in such a way that both the torsional stiffness rate and specific areas in which the beam flexes axially can be firmly established, it appears that the outer 260mm sections of the beam is sufficiently reinforced by the trailing arms and associated braces that those sections will neither twist radially nor bend axially

    If so then torsional resistance is created solely by the remaining 630mm central section of the beam, plus the full 1150mm unrestricted length of the integral ARB

    If two adapters are constructed, each able to simultaneously clamp onto the two opposing 6.6mm thick x 18.0mm long flat sections of the beam's "open" side, plus firmly grasp the 20mmd integral ARB to prevent it from revolving, and those adapters are each placed say 280mm either side of the beam's dead centre, we have now halved the effective length of the ARB, which doubles its resistance to torsional rotation

    Further, this resistance can be adjusted simply by moving the adapters towards or away from one another

    I've not seen this method in print, heard it discussed, nor seen photographs of its implementation - -

    I have other similarly simple ideas, for example components to prevent bump steer on lowered vehicles, and the design for a front strut upper mount which provides an almost infinite mounting point within a 40mmd circle, but unfortunately must close now

    And we've not yet touched king pin inclination and ackerman effects;)
     
  10. Mike_H Forum Addict

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    Can we have some more pics of these adjustable wishbones, please? Maybe worth a thread on it's own, describing how you designed and built them.
    :thumbup:
     
  11. LeftcoastTigger Paid Member Paid Member

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    Mook, apologies for sidetracking your thread somewhat from focusing on MII Golf track specifications; hope the discussion is helpful non the less
     
  12. sparrow Paid Member Paid Member

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    They are available already, I have them on mine:
    [​IMG]
    Or I did, before I bent it...

    The only problem I had with these was that the wheel sat quite a long way forward in the arch, and rubbed on the arch liner. I didn't have adjustable top mounts which would have allowed the whole assembly to move back but keep the caster.
     
  13. JWYATT Forum Member

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    is anyone adjusting rear toe in/out and camber on the beam axle ?

    Joe
     
  14. danster Forum Addict

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    Yes JWYATT.
    This can be done by placing shims behind the stub axle to induce camber or toe adjustments. :thumbup:
     
  15. mil0 New Member

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    This thread is why I love clubgti, some invaluable info right there!

    Thanks
    Miles
     
  16. mk2sp Forum Member

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    A bit of delay, sorry about that.

    I see u r in Loutraki, Greece. I have been in Megara circuit only once. I do not like it much. I live in North Greece so i visit Serres racing circuit (http://www.serrescircuit.gr/index_int.asp?code=home)

    Now, if the suspension geometry of ur Mk1 is ok, then u have got less reasons for wandering to examine :) . Check the chassis (as u already told) and uneven tire patches.
     
  17. mk2sp Forum Member

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    :clap:

    Can be done. I will be curious to see how it performs. Have seen that in some racing/rallying vehicles through the net but never discussed about it.
    You will need space upwards the top mount to weld the additional metal (if i understood ok). If so, i think u will have to watch out for your hood-top mount clearence.
    Oem springs don't think will be good for the job as they r only 70-80lbs for the front and 120-130 for the rear). I agree having softer springs and use of ARBs for road/mountain use but them two must co-operate. You don't want to go with to soft spring and too hard ARB as you will find the same stiffness problem u had with very stiff springs and oem ARB (i hope u got what i mean).


    Never thought about it. Any sketches?


    Any sketches on them too...? :lol:
     
  18. mk2sp Forum Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  19. LeftcoastTigger Paid Member Paid Member

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    Mk2sp

    Appreciate your comments; new 60hr job plus commute has displaced much enthusiast time[:s], will try to respond with photos and sketches before month end:p
     
  20. mk2sp Forum Member

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    No worries mate. Been busy too. Thread is always here ;).
     

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