Winged Sumps ?

So, I`ve been looking at a `winged` sump for my Golf. There are loads of threads on various types of Baffled sump, but I`m struggling to find much on winged ones on here.

What`s a `winged sump` you ask. This WEBSITE explains it quite well, but put simply, you are adding capacity to the existing sump, creating a baffled area around the oil pump pickup and hopefully reducing the chances of oil starvation.

They are standard sumps with extra volume due to the addition of `wings`. Clearly seen welded onto this Ford Alloy sump.


Thanks to Gurds for the info on the Moreso winged sump


It has internal baffling / hinged gates, but honestly ? The gaps between the plates and the side of the sump don`t inspire much confidence.


What it does do is force most of the returning oil in the the pickup area, then tries to keep it there with the hinged comparments feeding the pickup during cornering.

Some of the better designs have multiple hinged doors, all feeding into the oil pickup area. See Bottom right image. Also fully welded around the plates to stop oil sloshing up the sides, unlike the Moroso one above.



The Nissan Silvia has a removeable lower half to the sump from the factory. Usually, the black part is the lower half.


The sump on the engine.


However, the GReddy winged sump is a replacement for that bolt-on part and increases capacity AND has hinged doors.



This is the principle behind it during cornering.


Once secured to the upper half of the sump, the winged part is obvious



Another detailed steel one is this Rover V8 winged / baffled sump. This has a comples baffle system and routes the oil to the central square oil well.


This then has a windage tray attached that directs oil draining from the engine into the `pickup well` area




I`m planning to have a go at modifying one of my spare steel sumps. I`m going to lower the domed pickup area and adding not only a large wing to the front but also a smaller one to the rear (it can`t be too large due to driveshaft clearance). By lowering the standard pickup area, I`m hoping to create a better environment for the oil pickup well. Ground clearance isn`t a huge issue, I have over 20mm between the sump and the splitter, so I can drop it 20mm or so and still have no issues. The splitter never touches the floor in that area anyway.

I`ll need to extend the pickup to sit lower into the newly created well area, otherwise, I`m not benefitting from the increased capacity. This is the method commonly used, cut, extend and add a sleeve to join the original tubes.



Don`t have any photos / sketches of what I`m planning, it`s in my head at the moment, but once I`ve finalised my plans, I`ll post them here for comment and I`ll also keep the progress photos in here.

Any reasons why this is a bad idea ? Have I missed something obvious ?

 

Good thread Nige. With my engine rebuild in full swing, I too will be revisiting sump design. I want returning oil ally route to the pickup and also want an increase in capacity.

Gurds

 

That SR20DE link is for North/South RWD engines which could have issues when cornering/drifting/swapping direction in a flick, outside OEM intentions.
Our FWD transverse applications already have ample volume on each side of the sump, which can suppressed by flaps and traps. The extra capacity of the Moroso unit is to the front of the car.
Later ABF ally sumps tend to have more capacity than the old steel units as well as better cooling and least important on a track car noise damping.
Suggestions would be to look at transverse applications maybe on the internet and specific VW FWD solutions, or better yet ask several engine builders for their experiences if they wish to share.

 

Yeah, I appreciate that.

We don`t have much room to extend towards the gearbox, our setup is pretty limited for space there. You`d hit the block > gearbox brace straight away.

I don`t want to increase the depth towards the timing belt end. That currently drains towards the pickup, I want to keep that, which means I can`t add wings to that end easily, they aren`t where I need them.

The Moreso one adds a wing along the front of the sump, but as the pickup doesn`t sit any lower and that wing is lower than the original level, I don`t see it helping massively.



That great link from Cerips has this detail which explains it very well.

 

http://www.clubgti.com/showthread.p...is-available&p=2374689&viewfull=1#post2374689

 

Nige ... some thinking out loud to see what it brings, abuse probably lol

- Are you reacting to an issue or pre-empting one ?

- Standard pump ?

- Improved top end breathing after rocker cover modification - catch can level ?

- Oil return rate from head affected ?

- Are you going to reduce the sump operating / running level relative to the crank ?

- Oil circuit remains the same - stored volume increases - heat soak increases ?

- How has the turbo conversion affected oil temperature / cooling ?

Not too many coats out here but I`ll start looking for one

 

No need for the coat! All very valid questions IMO

 

Can I ask why you want the extra oil capacity? It's something I would never even think of modifying and I like to modify things - you should see my gravity racer.



Cheers

Pail

 

Not Pail - it's Paul. Sheesh, can't even spell my own name. lol

 

early audi 80 gte`s used a alloy winged baffled sump,you normally see them advertised as vw motorsport sumps,ive seen them fitted to golfs but they are not suited due to the transverse eng layout.

 

Nige if you don't mind the hours travel
A team central is available
Big mig , little mig and tig plus plenty of steel and aluminium as well

Muke

No Mike lol

 

Instead of looking at transverse sumps i see mainly north/ south engine sumps inhere.... its like comparing apples and oranges...

Its actualy very simple, take a steel sump, these dont crack while you hit a curb,
(altough an extra sheet of metal doesnt hurt) put 2 baffles in it with trapdoors,
Use a windage tray as mounted in an ABF as this prevents oil thrown up or even over the baffle plates

And make sure you pickup point is only 1 cm (or less) from the bottom of the sump...
and its in a boxed in area....that get oil at all times
Extra volume ? When oil get Hot, the extra Liter or so oil doesnt really bring your oil temp down....
it only takes longer to get hot
You need an oilcooler for track use... a big one ! And that brings also some extra oil volume....
And now we are talking about cooling... get your water temp down to 70 - 80 C

 

Thanks Hugo. This is my aim right now too. A boxed area with trap doors around the pickup pipe and a tray area that feeds drainage back to the box area where possible.

The extra volume was aimed more at having the oil level further away from the crank while maintaining the quantity of oil required.

I still might use the aluminium ABF sump as I have a splitter under it that would take initial impact.

Gurds

 

The point of a thread like this is to ask for opinions and listen to the replies.

Some modifications we make are reacting to an issue, others are pre-empting one. That`s what this is, a pre-emptive mod.

YEP. Never had a flow / pressure issue with sufficient oil in the sump.

Not an issue. It drains back to the sump anyway so sump volume isn`t lowered.

Not that I`m aware ?

No, I have no clearance issues, the sump is well above the splitter and that doesn`t touch anything, so no benefit.

Yes, but oil temp is ZERO issue for me

I have too much cooling. Seriously. I blank off half of my oil cooler and ends of the radiator on cold trackdays ! I added a huge radiator and boxed it in, along with boxing in the oil cooler. That has removed ANY cooling concerns I had.

Absolutely NO need to do that. The whole point of this thread was to get input BEFORE I did it

Because there is less chance of the pickup being out of the oil if there is more volume in the system

lollollol

Agreed, but it was mostly to explain `what a winged sump is`. I still think it`s relevant, the Rover one for example has a great 4-door pickup well and the oil from the opposite end of the sump has to return to the well before it can run back underneath the plate and into the sump

I already have 2 trapdoor baffles. These have helped greatly.

We call it a windage tray. I already have one fitted.

Now THAT is exactly what I want to achieve, as per the Rover V8 one pictured.

I have ZERO oil cooling issues, that`s not the point of aim of this, it`s to get more volume in the sump, so there is always sufficient oil to cover the pickup and the trapdoors around the pickup will aid that.

My water temp is well under control. Too cold on a winter trackday actually. It was as low as 66 degrees on track, never going above 70. I KNOW this is too cool and I`m checking the thermostat incase it`s stuck open !


Apologies for the multiple quote / answer, but it seemed the best way for the replies to be relevant to the question / point raised

 

So far the 'winged sump' references are mostly for North/South RWD/AWD applications. Rover V8, Audi V8, Slivia S13/S14/S15 SR20DET.

I am lost with the logic of using such references.

If I was attempting the same, my question would be what is used on VW Motorsport East/West engines that compete?
Those that do not have a dry sump fitted.

From a technical point of view, what exactly are you pre empting though because it sounds like you already have the basics covered for a non competitive track car?

Which corner is long enough and likely to cause to cause a concern with your current set up?

 

I already explained that.

It was to show what a `winged sump` is and to demonstrate the internal baffling of a good setup. The Rover V8 one has all the oil returning from the head / block being forced into the chamber where the pickup is located. Only then can it run back to the wings / existing sump area. It`s a design that shows good oil-return control IMO and that`s why I posted it.

The fact the `wings` are in the wrong position for our engine layout is the only difference. The baffling and principles are the same.

 

I did see what you were trying to describe with the baffle principle yes . However you then seemed to compare and suggest other North/South applications where 'better' than the only actual East/West VW EA827 component from Moroso that you put up. It was in your opinion granted. I also see what you suggested about the oil drainage in the Rover V8 motor. Maybe less of a concern in a VW inline engine?

That Moroso part is quite elaborate compared to what is run in VW Motorsports engines mind. And who is to say that what you run in the car now is more than sufficient?

Our applications do not need 'Winged Sumps' like say an Audi 80 with a 3A motor. I appreciate we would want to stop oil slush though.

Hence the question what are you pre-empting?


All discussion though so others feel free to chip in with your thoughts.

 

2 baffles with trapdoors and a windage tray, does the job as this is basically what is used in BTCC /WTCC cars and these generate G forces well above 1.5 G

There are long corners were oil is slushed to one side for quite a long period, and pickup can only suck oil as long as there is oil supply...and there is the commited turn-in either at a 90 degree bend or a high speed commited turn in like paddock hill bend for instance... ( certainly while running on slicks) this can slosh oil against the wall... and pickup takes air.... also think about riding a curb or a dip in the road can thrown oil up ....box-in the pick up pipe is the message...

On the moroso sump, its nowhere good in design.... the centre box should be no wider than about 10cm to keep good oil control....