Winged Sumps ?

Thanks.

The angle of the ramped area on the OE sump in your picture is a bit wrong I think. The line is shown in the Moroso drawing. Also, the pickup is closer to the ramped area.

The final point is that the oil level with be much lower at high RPM too.

Gurds

 

I appreciate this is a desktop attempt at canting the sumps from internet pictures, without
access to the actual parts or vehicle at home so there would be errors. Be easy with me.
The angled line in the aftermarket sump is the trap door. The line on the vee of the sump facing the front of the car is not equal to the 'flat side' from the pictures of the steel sump I was just looking at.

Lower at operating rpm by how much, 1/2 at a guess?

We are trying to build up a dynamic picture to understand how adding modifications do and could work.

 

Somebody once made a rough estimate of the pump passing 1L per second!!!

Gurds

 

Assuming that is correct wherever it came from, if we can estimate how much is returned then we can calculate the drop in level at say 5000-6000rpm, the typical revs you maybe at going around a long bend.

 

Just thought I'd add some descent pictures of my oettinger sump as after taking a closer look it's a real piece of work :









The windage tray guides almost all the oil to be dropped right above the oil pump pick up

Also of note is the fact that the oil pump is lowered buy about 15 mm by a spacer between the top of the oil pump and the block . Thus giving the option of higher oil capacity or lower oil level?

 

That`s really interesting. Many thanks for those.

Gurds and I were discussing earlier this week that a windage tray diverting oil to the pickup area, especially if the pickup boxed area is hinged as previously mentioned, would really give you a better chance

 

That is complete and utter rubbish sirguydo, I'll take it off your hands....


Serious thought put into that sump and reaffirms my own thoughts.

Gurds

 

If my Mrs had her way you could have the chance lol
But I've not had it that long and it cost me plenty
But this thread made me have another look at it and the work involved in casting it is serious
Hugo likes it a lot and I've said Ed could borrow it to take it over to show him
Membership of the best vw club has its perks

 

Sirguydo, is it possible to get some dimensions of it? Just the overall depth of each plate and maybe the oil pump pickup tube please.

Gurds

 

Yes no problem but you'll have to wait till Monday
Right a list or draw a diagram of what you'd like

 

The oil pump shaft rotates at the same rpm as the engine ? As 8v dizzy runs off the top of the shaft it must do ?

I could set up a drill on a oil pump and test how long it takes to pump 10 ltrs at 4000 rpm and say 7000rpm to get a reasonable idea ?

 

Dizzy and oilpump run at half crankshaft speed

On oilflow reckon somewhere in the 6-10 L/ min per 1000 rpm ?

Below: from a PDF by Pace Pumps ( dry sump)


Oil Pump
Q1. How do I set the PRV?
Before we start adjusting let us question what the PRV does and why do we need it.
Lets remember that the pressure pump doesnt make pressure. What happens is the output flow meets the
resistance that is provided by the engine as well as its various ancillaries and pressure is created.
Here are some relationships, flow, resistance and pressure that may help with the visualisation;
? Constant engine speed and constant resistance results in constant pressure.
? Constant flow and an increase in resistance results in an increase in pressure.
? Constant flow and a reduction in resistance results in a reduction in pressure.
? An increase in flow and an increase in resistance results in an increase in pressure.
? An increase in flow and a reduction in resistance results in a reduction in pressure.
Two examples;
The engine is started from cold and the pressure gauge reads 5 bar. As the engine warms the oil pressure drops
to 2 bar. Why?
Because the output of the pump remains constant, whilst the clearances within the engine increase in size and
the viscosity of the oil is reduced. The net result is the resistance is reduced, so the pressure is reduced.
The operating temperature of the engine and the oil stabilise, yielding an idle oil pressure of 2 bar. If the engine
speed is increased to 2000rpm the oil pressure increases to 4 bar. Why?
Because the oil pumps output has increased, whilst resistance remains constant.
Most oil pumps are positive displacement and are sized for to accommodate the highest rate of specific
demand, which occurs at hot idle. However at higher engine speeds the engine may not require all of the oil
the pump displaces, therefore we need something to regulate the oil flow.
For example if an engine requires 10 litres per minute at 1000rpm and the pump is sized accordingly, and then
run at 8000rpm the pump will theoretically displace 80 litres per minute. The engine may not require all 80
litres per minute, it may only require 40. This is where the PRV comes in, which opens at a pre-determined
pressure and allows the excess oil to return back to the inlet side of the pump or return it to the sump.
Therefore the oil pressure on the outlet side of the pump is kept constant and is regulated to the required
value.
The PRV should be adjusted in line with the engine builders recommendations i.e. 3.5 bar at 4000 rpm with
90C oil temperature.
With reference to the relevant installation drawing, adjust the PRV for your target oil pressure. The quoted
cracking pressure is at the PRV and a difference will be noted between this and the pressure on the gauge.
Start the engine and, check that the engine has sufficient pressure at idle. Increase the engine speed to your
specification RPM. Check the oil pressure and turn the adjuster clockwise to increase the pressure and anticlockwise
to reduce it. Once you are satisfied with the pressure settings, tighten the lock nut whilst holding the
adjusting screw in position.
If the adjuster is screwed in beyond the maximum specified the spring will become coil bound and can result in
the over-pressuring the lubrication circuit which can damage the pump. This is more likely to occur when the
engine is started from cold and the oil is its most viscous/thickest. In extreme cases this pressure has enough
force to blow the oil filter from the engine.
Note: Adjusting the PRV at engine idle will have no effect on oil pressure.

 

Duh of course it run half speed it's a four stroke engine

Good stuff Hugo

 

Hugo,

What are your thoughts on the Oettinger sump presented by Sirguydo, vs the one you spoke about? We already know what you thought about the Moroso, which I am sure has been created for the drag racers over the the US.

 

Its certainly one of the better vw sumps ive seen, the upper part forms infact the windage tray and that is well made, like it needs to be done
with 2 oil collecting slots that catch the oil that come of the spinning crank.... and no oil is able to go up again, so it avoid that the crank/ rods are slamming around in an oil bad.

On the lower part im no fan of the big gap were the oil pickup pipe goes towards the oilpump as the centre section is the most important section and should be well sealed
the extra outer baffles just keep the oil more ``static`` for so far we can say that....but the more the oil moves around the more chance on oil with airbubbles...this air need removed before reaching the oilpump and the front and rear horizontal plates keep the oil on the sump floor ( for instance when driven hard on/off a curbestone )

There are some areas where i want to see more detail as they are hidden, like how flows oil from one section to the other...

 

Took a few more pics of my oettinger sump today
If you want any specific measurements or pictures post so I can help be next week now though to busy
Oil pump and spacer


Oil pathways highlighted to show internal guides inside the windage tray .




Baffles in the bottom half of the sump



thats it for now

 

Interesting component

Thanks for adding more details Mike.

 

Brilliant information provided by you all so far. Thanks.

I started to mock up min with cardboard. It's not finished but hopefully going in the right direction.









Need to add a few more bits before trying in metal.

Gurds

 

I have this sump which I bought off someone who told me it would be suitable for my 16V engine. It turns out it's designed for a longitudinally mounted engine as found in the audi 80's etc. I've done a search with the part number but nothing comes back so I'm not exactly sure of its origins. Here are a few pictures of it;








Be interested to find out more about it if anyone recognises it.

 

It's similar to this one ?
Link shows further info

Yes it's the same one as posted near the beginning of this thread .