Off to a good start at my local Honda dealer today...salesman who arranged the appointment couldn't be bothered to be there!! When he did appear his words were "I think you'll find a big difference between your car in terms of performance the Honda is in a different league" I said it wasn't standard but his reply was.....but the Type R has nearly 200bhp nad sets the benchmark way above anything VW can produce! Anyway off I went for the afternoon. First impressions were initially good with the run out model..fantastic Recaro seats nice gear change and position of lever and steering. No squeaks or rattles and well put together. There has been improvements to the engine and flywheel has been lightened and ECU played with for more torque. Initially the response low down in town was good between 2 -3k although unlike my MKIV. The engine was turbine smooth too. Out onto the open roads where I could really open it up.Surprisingly dissapointed...nice at 6000rpm but what hard work below that. In single carriageway driving picking off overtakes was real hard work...forever waiting for 6000rpm to arrive for real progress to be made.The only way to keep it on the boil was real snappy chages in the power band keeping it above the 6k mark.Continual planning and anticipation are essential driving this car.. As for 197bhp it didn't feel like a 200bhp car unlike my valver of old more like 185+. Handling was positive on turn in with reasonably high levels of grip but under high speed braking deep and late had the back end wiggling nervously...not inspiring..............definately very light on rear...certainly needed a diff too.Wiffy steering feel. As a track tool it would be pretty good if ther handling traction and brakes were better but aI can see why my old valver was better at Donnington remebering passing the Type R flat out under the Dunlop bridge/straight Biggest dissapointment was when I ventured onto the M5 motorway...not a road where these cars are best. Following slower moving was a chore as the road opened out it was not change from 6 to 5th but 6th to 3rd gear dependant on speed to get real oomph. The lack of torque is really noticeble where the MKIV really piles on the pace over 70 and in gear increments when cruising made realise just how good the MKIV is...it would not only destroy a type flat out thru the gears but also crucify it in gear acceleration in normal day to day driving. Won't be buying one of them then !!...not at 18K on run out models. Forgot to mention to the salesman that the MKIV has more or less 230-250 ish...dependant on what RR it goes on for a dyno and plenty of torq. Ian
couldnt agree more, there dissapointing cars tbh. i think if your a really good driver and you take it on the track it'll whip the golf all day, but as you say normal driving feels underpowered and it would get tiring screwing it at 6k up all day.
It would certainly whip a standard MKIV....not a chipped late MKIV with the later KO3s zorst etc etc and decent suspension set up as it should have been originally, Driving my car flat out would whip it in every situation even thought the MKIV is probably heavier given the power/torque differential 240+hp/250-270lbs Ian
I have never got on with VTEC engines and never will. No replacement for displacement a supercharger or turbocharger that can provide you with masses of torque. I can appreciate the technology and the bomb proof reliability of honda engines but as you said Ian they are awful cars to use on a day to day basis, i found my self rocking in my seat to get extra momentum to get it up to the VTEC zone, tis very funny They do feel gutless when not in the VTEC zone! Also the Kerb weight of the type r hinders it some not quite like a MK4 thow. However thats why its easy to get away from most VTEC honda's who have about 300000000000 BHP supported by about 2 LBft foot of torque (slight over exaggersion but if you've driven one you'll know what i mean ) cos if you catch them out the VTEC zone they are no pokier then a standard engine whether its a 1.6, 1.8, 2.0 or 2.2 VTEC
Seems the Honda chap was blissfully unaware that other makes can supercede their standard offering.... Shows that our "old" mk2s are still a bit ahead of the Honda performance IMO mate. Fancy my chances road or track... Shows that the mk4 is actually very competent, especially on the road, given the choice mods yours has, & good enough to fend me off @ Combe til you ran out of brakes
p.s. the threads gettin a similar, if not better, repsonse over on uk-mkivs too...but thats to be expected! Edited by: Seraph
Dead right Chris..........ECS brakes I know it makes sense. MK2 2 litre valver is much better Chris especially yours would leave it dead especially the handling Ian
Sounds pretty much the same as everyone else i know who has one or has driven one. A rev happy monster that is good if not exceptional when u get it spinning. The motor characteristics sound rather like 2 stroke engines and that tbh when your carrying all that weight that a car has is not ideal.
Now Ian can see why i sold one. They are lovely cars but are not as much fun as the VW's we spend a fortune on modifying. We all know Ian has driven an Integra DC5 and loved that but he has yet to drive a DC2. I drove a DC2 when i had my golf and would love to own one. Ian, go and drive an old integra if you want a reliable replacement for your MK2
i have a picture of my mates type R hitting an indicated 160mph 4 up. It was a mad car, but he wrote 2 off from the back end stepping out. He now has a Leon Cupra.
I owned an 03 Civic Type R for two years, and I thought it was superb! Honda's VTEC engines are like marmite...you either love them or hate them. They do demand a different style of driving, which if you're used to turbos, you're not going to like them. Personally, it suited my driving style to a tea! Assuming all cars are standard, the civic was on a par with the Golf R32. I chased a few in my time of ownership. It's pointless comparing a standard civic to a modded MkIV Golf as someone did in an earlier post. Try comparing a modded MkIV Golf to a Civic with a Jackson's Racing Supercharger instead. Love 'em, and I'd gladly have another!
Thing is tho, Ian is used to a relatively 'peaky' engine as his old mk2 16v Golf had a set of Schrick cams and other things and was more or less 200bhp (165 ATW) on Stealths rollers. It was a good mk2 which went well on track.... and he sold it. One of Olly's (rradogolfman) mates has a 'Teg with Jackson 'charger.. it put out 220bhp at the wheels at TSR.
Aaha, but you could compare a Jackson racing 'charged civic type R (346bhp) with Rob Carvell's Cup Scirocco (170bhp) round a race track. Track and Race Car magazine (this months) did. The scirocco beat the type-r's time by almost 4 sec and is on pace with a Rouse RS500.
Yea, I know. . Was lookin for a post where i could post about the feature though and this was the closest to the subject!
Out of the box standard the Type R is pretty good and has moved the goalposts on from the MK2 16V from 1986 if you look a standard cars like for like.The jap technology speaks for itself and there's no denying that it is far quicker than a standard MK2. Offsetting the cost to buy one against modding a valver to 2 litre with Quaiffe diff, Koni suspension it's a much cheaper proposition.The valver gives a much better torque spread lower down and in my experience is quicker on the M5 and track ! If you mod the type R you still have to buy the car and jap tuning parts ain't cheap.I've looked into that. That's why a DC5 or DC2 is better package out of the box. Personally the MK2 valver is superb....shame they are getting older and more rusty! I'm starting to enjoy my MKIV and it's different driving style and with the right mods they are good especially the later K03 sport models unless your budget extends to an IHI. Again they are cheaper and simple to mod ie re chip and suspension. A type R I was quoted on was 1500 for Mugen suspension 600 for exhaust 650 for induction kit then the Vtec controller was extra all for 220bhp. I may choose a DC5 in the future but for now I'll keep the MKIV for a bit longer. I've just fitted the Neuspeed larger intake pipe, roll bars and Neuspeed FMIC which has made a big difference plus APR's new race software prgramme,with some big Porasche brakes in the pipe line (bells and rotors) IAN
This proves nicely an argument I was trying to get across on another forum that sorting the handling on a car comes first. Power is secondary. Rob Carvell's Cup Scirocco obviously had superior handling to the Civic, which is well known for lacking feel! Given everything I've said about it, I know my Mk1 would whoop it on a track (not the superchaged one obviously), and I'm only running 125-130bhp!
I have to admit, since I started racing and became acquainted with you lot, the idea of modding a much older Mk2 or even Mk1 to go extraordinarily fast, is much more attractive to me than going out and buying a new car, which because new cars are so much more advanced, are more expensive to tune. And let's face it, don't have the character and appealof 'old school' stuff.
