Quick question really, i have measured 2 subframes for my mk2 (both are mk3 style) 1 is 60cm between the wishbones the other is 69cm (is this true widetrack or not?) Anyway,the question is; will the 9cm make a big difference in handling or just a slight improvment? I realise that the width between the wishbones makes a bigger difference than just spacing the wheels out the same length but its gonna be awhole f*#k on swapping subframes over but if its gonna be worth it i'll do it. Car is a mk2 golf for the track WORTH THE EXTRA EFFORT????
If you fit passat (late 80s to early 90s type) wishbones and driveshafts (and steering arms I think) that'll give you a widetrack setup without changing subframes.
done mine recently and most of the difference is in the wishbones I think - used mk3 vr6 stuff of proff. wishbones are sided though so go to halfords and have a look in the mk3 hains to make sure you get em on the right side or the arb wont fit, which incidently needs to be the mk3 one also as the mk2 one wont work with the new wishbones. re bush with pollybushes while your there, gsf prothane kit for mk2 is correct for mk3 also and is excellent value but dont buy their wishbones as their rubbish. almost forgot - if you use the mk3 subframe you need a mk3 rear engine mount (vr6/abf) and the mounting bracket off the rear drivers side of either the 16v gti or the 8v gti engine as the mk2 engine mounts wont fit the frame and the mk2 engine bracket wont fit the mk3 mount (hope that made sence ). the 8v bracket sits the engine about 15mm further back than the 16v one if that helps.
yep the difference is in the wishbones, not the subframe. either MK3 4stud or Passat bones will give you widetrack but retaining the MK2 arb, the mk3/corrado 5stud bones will also give you wide track but you need the mk3/corrado 5stud arb to go with it. Oh and you must match the 4 stud/5 stud hubs with 4stud/ 5stud bones, otherwise the wheel wont be centred in the arches anymore. This is because the 5 stud balljoint mounting point has been moved slightly back or forward, can't remember which way it is but its around 1cm iirc. The subframe is definitly the same width on MK2/MK3, otherwise you wouldnt be able to bolt a MK3 subframe to a MK2, but you can Oh and a passat subframe is wider, and so it wont bolt to a MK2
Thanks for the reply's guy's Some interesting info in your answer too I'm using a mk3 ibiza subframe (same as mk3 golf but with mk2 Golf wishbones) using mk3 style engine mounts. This might explain why the front engine mount seems about 13mm too far back which 1 do i need then? mk3 16v? Using mk3 wishbones is out of the question atm,i'm using new poly bushed mk2 versions & new Eibach ARB's The other subframe in question is a mk1 Seat toledo (ABF) Its IS wider by 9mm,although it looks identical to the slightly thinner ibiza item. mabe thats why its ARB tie rods are offset??? wishbones are mk2 golf and are no wider (i still have them so will check again) The toledo is possibly based on the Passat,what i havn't checked yet is if it will bolt onto the mk2 G chassis (thats something to do tomorrow then) but i'll get to the bottom of it.
ok you havent got wide track then, tis all in the bones check the subframe measurements across the bolt holes, rather than the actual subby itself. thats what is important you'll need a bizza/mk3 front engine mount bracket and mount i think, trouble is i dont think this will bolt to your gearbox, you never know it might do...
No its not a wide track at the min,but i did measure across the bolt holes. i heard that the toledo was wide track (4 stud) but i'm now thinking its just 9mm wider (using the subframe) hence the spaced out tie-rods for the ARB (which seem unique afaik) Should of said that i'm using the ibiza box too along with the front engine bracket (20vt) i have found that the mk2 VR6 solid mount is the right angle or i think the toledo crossmember & f/mount would fit the job. all has been removed again so trial fitting the subframe should be easy
thats well interesting - any chance you could post up some pics of the toledo droplinks and the subframe ? Cheers Rob
Just had a look and the toledo ABF has both a MK3 subframe and wishbones the non-abf has a MK2 subframe so either your measurments are out somehow or one of the subframes is bent!
I was going to supercharge mine and after a bit of digging found that the mk3 8v rear mount bracket let the engine sit about 15mm further back for added clearance but the abf one sat it forward in the original position. now going turbo so I need the room at the back again... bugger
Right, Between breaks in the rain i got some pics here is a mk2 S/F (bottom) and the toledo I lined up the left side to see how much it was out on the right. Rear bolt holes were also the same width apart as the mk2 (just over 68cm) Onto the off-set ARB tie rods,here's a pic of the 1 from the ABF subframe Wandered out to have a look at my daily TDI toledo (shed) to see if there was any difference! You can clearly see the same off-set tie rods on mk2 wishbones and the mk3 N/S engine mount. This MUST be because of the width difference in the subframe,as ARB is the same size as a mk2 (can't think of any other reason) When my jack is free i'll measure the distance between the wishbones (for the 12th time lol) on the daily hack but i think it'll be the same as the ABF one (exactly 2 ft as opposed to 60cm)
Right this is all very interesting! What you have proved there is that the rear holes are the same (obviously, otherwise SEAT would need a different chassis for the ABF engine compared to the rest, which would be madness!!) However the FRONT wishbone mountings are further apart, which is a bit strange. This would mean that when putting MK2 stud bones on a MK3 subframe the bones will be rotated ever so slightly backwards leading to the wheel being slightly off-centre in the arch, and a bit more/less castor? Unless the mounting point on the MK3 subby is moved around to compensate... It might also add a little extra to the track, but I cant imagine it would be a massive ammount, certainly not as much as bolting MK3 5 stud or Passat bones. It's making my head hurt thinking about it tbh We need someone in here who knows about suspension mountings and wishbone angles n stuff to comment The offset ARB links is simply becasue the SEAT ABF has a MK2 G60 anti-roll bar, which is widely known to be the case, and the very same drop links are used on the MK2 G60 as well on the later Corrados which also got the same ARB. Edit: Anyone happen to know the castor settings of a SEAT ABF, and also those of a MK2 Golf?
dave- youre welcome to all the 4-stud widetrack stuff off my b3 passat when i put the abf lump in it (wishbones with polybushes, steering rack, driveshafts, ARB etc), i can bring them up to the yard when i next go visit my mate in huntingdon, wont be for a few weeks but if you want anything give me a shout
Hi Matt! That would be FANTASTIC m8 i'll sort you some cash for them as thats too kind . How's your ABF project going? well i hope?
I know what you mean (makes my head hurt too lol) must give some toe-out that would have to be corrected with the steering arms.
be good to see the passat arb in comparison, its pretty damn chunky but some say it wont fit on a Golf subframe due to the extra width (passat subframe is wider than a MK2). Some say it does fit though, so it would be nice to have a proper confirmation I was planning to use a Passat arb on my MK2 as its quite cheap in comparison to say eibachs, but I ended up getting a cheap set of eibachs instead!
yea really good- ive stripped everything down, only thing left in the block is the intermediate shaft, just got a load of cleaning to do now before i build it back up with new rings, mains, bigends etc, still need to get a couple of bits sorted like a decat pipe and new rear discs for the 5 stud wheels, but it all came apart really well, only issue was a cracked exhaust manifold but i sorted that for 15 with one i found on ebay working on it full time now ive finished work so its all coming on pretty quickly, and having a mate at the local VW dealers helps lots with getting the parts sorted
Bringing this thread back... Has anyone come to a conclusion regarding Mk2 wishbones on a Mk3 subframe? A bit more caster would be pretty nice as I really don't like the lighter steering you get with running negative camber.
they're the same regarding wishbone position so wont do a lot for you.SEAT Ibiza/Toledo use MK3 subframe + MK2 wishbones from the factory
