Oettinger, Graf, KR and ABF heads - How much do they flow?

There is a Vw race car for sale on racecarsdirect it runs a 16v with 280bhp might be worth a look reasonable price iirc.

 

Run and hide non believer LOL. You could - my engine mapped with race fuel and 48's would make 250hp
But it would be too peaky for my stock-based gearbox and probably slower than the current spec. Bolt on a sequential close ratio box and it would be worth the bother...

 

yeh - only 25K......it is a supertourer vento though

 

Pah, 25k, cheap rubbish...

 

this one here is quoted at 252bhp?
http://www.closeratio.com/asp/default.asp?dynamic=details&id=3006



no details on full spec of engine though

 

Yep Rob T 's right.....gonna cost you 10k for those outputs....proper race spec engine...that's without anything else.

A genuine 200bhp is more realistic on less than 5k....with everything done.

Even the old 2 litre 16v touring car engines were around 300 a world away from our engines with colossal factory support and investment.

Big bucks M8

 

What are the expensive bits in getting a 16v upto @250bhp then, I only have experience of the 8v which runs out of breathing before the need for trick bottom ends?

I am guessing:-
Head 1000
Cams 300
Valves 200
Followers 350
Pistons 600
Rods 700
Crank 600
Carbs & Manifold or EFI 700
Machining 100
Gaskets 100
Zorst manifold 400

That is only at 5k so I must be missing something...and I am building one at the moment so I could do with finding out before I get a shock!!!

I am ignoring things like clutch and flywheel that dont actually add bhp.

 

carbs / manifold / efi....700 - on what planet ? not for EFI and thats what such an engine should be running. Try 1.5-2K (ecu, loom, bodies, fuel rail, sensors, rampipes filter etc etc) and double that for a really good ecu setup

Dyno time ?
Clutch and flywheel dont add bhp but need to be sorted as std ones will come off at the rpms you will need to use - could be 500 easy
Dry sump would help - 1.5K
Experience / test time to choose the right components....cost unknown...thats why decent engine builders charge a lot to source the right parts
steel crank would help for over 250hp due to the rpms needed - stock would be about on its limit so not sure I would want to go this far on one - 1200
bet BTB would charge you a bit more than 400 for a manifold also - more like 1200 whn I asked once before

the costs skyrocket to do a good job

 

You would need throttle bodies to get 250-280 and could easily spend 1000 on mapping to get the engine spot on. I just spent 1700 on motec management and RR time for the VR and it still really needs to be remaped again for an extra 10bhp its running on a basic map. As Rob said i wouldnt want to run a engine at that rpm on a standard crank just not worth it, you need it bulit proof if your laying down that sort of cash. 10-12K if you go to an engine builder less if you build it yourself.You do need to include a labour cost if done pro.

 

Worth the money imo probably cost 70k+ to build would kill anything on track

Link if anyone wants a look

http://www.racecarsdirect.com/viewlisting.php?view=15809

X trac 6 speed box mmmh

 

Second hand throttle bodies for example

http://www.racecarsdirect.com/viewlisting.php?view=14580

 

Call me old fashioned, but carbs should make the same power as EFI if they have large enough chokes and are jetted correctly at peak power, its just the mid range fueling that is comprimised because of the lack of ability to alter specific areas of the RPM range.

So if everythng else is right you should be able to achieve the same peak power with a 700 set of carbs as EFI.

How on earth do you spend 1000 on mapping...at 70 per hour that is 2 days on the rollers!!! The engine would need rebuilding by then and you would have to start again

What RPM does a stock 1800 crank go to?

As I said I am new to 16v so tone it down a little, I am only asking the question?

Has anyone got any power curves for a 250bhp 16v motor they can post up with cam spec's....would be interesting to see where peak power is for specific cams.

 

carbs eh ? how quaint. Maybe you could get some brass ones ?

I'd say 2-3 days total on the rollers in several sessions is about spot on. Map for my engine has been done over several years and keeps getting better. Stock forged 2L crank is good for 8.5K, dont know about 1800.

Dont know of any 250hp valvers in the UK that arn't ex-factory lumps and never seen a dyno plot from one

 

'kinell, these throttle bodies sound like a pain in the ****. You can get through every jet, choke, and tube on the shelf in half a day with carbs.

Out of interest...how much has this 3 days of rolling road improved the peak power? I know you can improve the area under the power graph quite a bit with TB's...but not really peak power.

 

who cares about peak power?....not me, the dyno time goes to make drivability which is the name of the game especially when you dont have a factory trick snick snick gearbox - certainly is the case for hillclimb and sprinting anyhow, and off and mid throttle response is very important also which would be total crap with carbs big enough to allow this kind of power.

maybe if you have a really nice close ratio box and spend all of your time flat open throttle carbs would be ok, but I dont

 

Once the car has a running in map then a lot of it is improving the curve itself gaining more power lower down in the rev range and in later stages playing around with intake lengths, boxes which can have a big effect and out right bhp if required. Also you can have different maps ie wet/dry/power to weight ratio series etc. Standalone management is very flexiable.
Ian,
Dave built a 16v lump a few years ago that ran 237bhp limited to 8,200rpm could have given more had a steel crank too.Give him a call im sure he be please chat and catch up.

 

This thread is about a 250bhp target isn't it...for drag/RR shoot out type stuff.

What I am saying is carbs can deliver the same peak power as TB's for 700 vs the 2k + 1k RR quoted above.....you can always spend the 2.5k saved on a CR gearbox if required.

Pascal, do you know what cams that engine had? I am looking at only 200bhp, but it has to last for 24 hours....but after then I would like to use the base unit to build an all out 16v motor...and it will be on carbs.

 

Im popping round to dave's tomorrow so will ask. It was in the back of a early golf magazine there was a article on it. Cant find it now sorry.

 

Cheers mike that might be quite useful

 

I guess your Mum gets discount at BTB, Ian )