Rolling road..bit dissapointed! Hi Pigbladder, ChrisMC and all who have been folllowing this thread! Well I took the car to A B Garage near Chester last Tuesday and it was a good old fashioned garage in a smallish shed on an industrial estate!! There was a Aston Martin DB6 on the rollers when I arrived!! Picture of my car on the rollers!! Anyway had a good chat with the owner and left the car with him and went shopping in Chester! He said he would check the cam timing, fuelling, ignition timing etc and then get it on the rollers when I got back. Because I missed the bus I didn't get back till about 4.45pm!! He explained to me that he had found the cam timing to be out (but didn't have the cambelt off nor adjusted the tensioner so maybe I misunderstood him??) and the fuelling to be way too lean. I asked him to set the car up for maximum drivability and decent economy, rather than out and out power Anyway the figures from the rollers are a little dissapointing! Maximum power at the wheels was achieved at 6000RPM with 99BHP (approx 121BHP) at the flywheel. Maximum torque is achieved at 5600RPM with 279 Ib ft. Print out of a power run, 2000rpm to 6000rpm in third! Dyno computer:- However, I believe he said he had retarded the cam timing by 8 degrees??? It was set at 2 degrees advance before taking it in, it is now at 6 degrees retarded?? Cam timing as set on vernier:- After he had set up the car (including adjusting the AFM spring). I took the car out for a blast and it felt good to drive, pulling really strongly from low down and feeling very urgent When I got back, he said that I could get more BHP if he advanced the timing, but it would be spread over a lesser rev range and for everyday driving the setup he had done was best? What do you think? 121BHP is only 9BHPmore than standard! Considering the cost of the ported head and VW inlet/exhaust manifolds was over 400, plus the cost of the cam and vernier, exhaust etc...9 bhp isn't really much He also said that the engine would loosen up with mileage and BHP would improve. The terrible violent misfire has now gone, thankfully (this was down to the car running very lean). The engine is still running at about 102-110 (oil temp) on a 50 mile run, but the coolant temperature is normal. The MFA is showing between 31-35 MPG on a short run. Most people on the forum seem to have suggested advanced cam timing, so I was surprised he set it up retarded?? However the car pulls well and feels quicker than standard. He said he had set up the engine for everyday driving rather than out and out power? It was after 6.00pm by the time he had finished doing the power run, so it was too late to begin adjusting the vernier and trying further runs. I feel that a 9BHP gain is not brilliant though for the money I have paid out? Thought the ported 'Man in the Shed' head alone would give that increase! Any comments? Could the custom exhaust be an issue? It was way too noisy when it was first fitted so went back to be baffled, so maybe it's now too restrictive? I'm still not happy with the exhaust and may go back to a standard VW 8v or 16v system or something like a Supersprint?? Will be interested to hear everyones comments? The session only cost me just over 100 and that included new plugs (the dealer provided ones I sourced for the rebuild were wrong!!). The guys there were really excellent, so I could pop back and ask him to set it up differently? Something he also suggested, when I had put more miles on it! Cheers Paul (Alpenweiss2)
The torque figures arnt QUITE right Paul... we's all like 270+ibft... 8v's are good, but not quite that good! It looks to be making around 120 ib-ft fairly high up the rev range, but with a fairly flat curve so no too bad, just all the numbers are a bit lacking. Hard to call really... as you know, I have my ideas but not for print really.
Hey Mr Hillclimber, I will drop you an email as I am interested to know what your ideas are! Cheers Paul
If the torque figure is gibberish (and it is) then why would you believe the power figure? Torque and BHP should cross at 5250 rpm. BHP = Torque x RPM / 5250 How does the car feel driving it on the road - have you compared it to the other one?
With the figures being produced so high up in the rev range then there is scope to run the cam timing further advanced IMO and increase mid range torque. Peak power at 6000 is more like a 16v.... The torque figure you got is a total nonsense too. The fact the peak torque is at 5k revs points to retarded cam timing too. The only way to get an accurate datum on a true neutral cam timing position is to remove the cam cover so you can physically see the position of the lobes at TDC. Once an equal lift on overlap position is determined then the timing can be swung from there to suit... Not sure what Jason thinks? (mr hillclimber) but a flowed head and mild cam shouldn't really make it quite so peaky IMO I'd be hoping to easily crack 100bhp at the wheels too...125-130 tops is realistic for a flywheel figure
Hi Mike The car feels pretty good on the road, even if the dyno graph doesn't suggest that! The car pulls well and has some urgency but it doesn't feel massively different to the girlfriends standard 8 valve gti?? If the engine is capable of pushing out around 130-135BHP with the current spec then would that feel massively different to a standard 8 valve? (121 BHP currently doesn't feel too different??) Not sure what to do next? I still want to get rid of the custom exhaust as even with it quietened down, it's still too boomy and unrefined! Have my eyes on either a Supersprint 2" two box system (possibly mated to a VW front silencer) or a standard VW 16 valve system which is 2.25". At least the car is now running okay with no nasty misfires! Any suggestions? Cheers alpenweiss2
Can you get a compression test carried out? I have just read back through this epic tale and recall the "what block" scenario. I reckon you have a late EX (could look like DX on engine number stamp) or PB 8v block due the later style oil filter housing bolt pattern. As it has been allegedly reconditioned, I hope they have fitted the correct pistons. IE not low comp ones. Did you ever check the stroke (bore is the same), to make sure it was not a 1.6, as the block itself can have either crank and pistons installed.
Just happened to read in - seeing Danster nosing around 8v threads always prompts intrigue! Anyway, this block has Brazil written below the part number at the bottom: Why would a Brazil block be in the UK? Replacement OE dealer stock, or a scrapped import? Ideas anyone? What engine code is etched in below the no 3 plug at the top of the block? The shape of the casting around the engine number machined facing differs from the norm
We did get Brasil blocks here. My 1992 rocco gt had an EX 1.8 carb block. The cranks look forged in them too, but are actually cast. Those cheeky brazilians must have made the mold for the crank from a forged one!
Fine, well that's confirmed possible then. Maybe it is ex Sciroccco? It's definitely not a tall block. Here's a 3A Brazilian block - way different around the oil take off and engine stamp:
I still think getting eyes on the cam lobes with it set to TDC is the way ahead. Cam timing set at 6 degs retarded sounds way away from factory settings. How do the cam pulley marks line up at TDC now? It may still be running 1 tooth out, hence why the vernier adjustment is a long way from zero. Either that or the cam has been ground incorrectly....
Something is a miss, just to compare, my engine: 2e bottom end, p & p head, kent gs1 cam and a 4 branch manifold, standard 8v exhaust. Out the box made 125bhp, was pinking all over the place and has no vernier to adjust. Stealth then set it up and mapped it, came away with 135bhp. Maybe a 1.8 block would be a touch less but then my 2l block wasn't refurbed, just thrown in as it was. Also out of intrest Vince pointed out to me that adjusting the AFM spring wasn't an ideal way of getting it going and mine was left well alone. Maybe comes down to timing but as Danster is getting at, its worth checking out just what that block is.
Absolutely agree with that. TDC should be set with the flywheel dimple to the bell housing mark, and then check the timing mark on the crank v belt pulley lines up with the mark on the timing belt cover too. I have commented in other threads that I have seen numerous crank timing belt pulleys with their little locating keyway semi- sheared, meaning the pulley is not actually in the correct position. Just about half the 8v engines I have stripped have this fault. If this is not checked then the timing mark on the vernier (if it has one and it is in the same position as an oe pulley) will never line up with the cam timing mark on the cam belt cover in the standard position without the cam appearing to be either advanced o retarded.
Pretty sure the true "neutral" cam timing position is yet to be have been established by anyone either. 6 degs retarded from stock just sounds incorrect from experience Easy enough to check if you can remove the cam cover, set TDC and take a few pics Paul Also pics of how the cam pulley timing marks now line up at TDC (both inner and outer faces of the vernier pulley should have marks) will be really helpful
Getting really fed up with all of this now!! Why oh why did I let a local garage do my engine rebuild!! It seems that from the suggestions on here, that there is still an issue with my engine. The garage that did the rebuild said it was definately a 1.8 block (but what do they know??) Just out of interest, the old 1.8 PB block that was removed from my car (with the normal PB oil filter housing mount) also has a Brazil stamp on it ?? Maybe as Danster says they just used Brazil cast blocks in the later cars? (mine is a 1991 run out model). I would have thought that the guy at A B garage that did the rolling road set up would have realised if the cam timing was out? I asked him to check the cam timing, fuelling and ignition timing. I think I will ring A B garage tommorrow and ask a few questions? Just want my car to run properly and have decent power[:^(] Cheers Alpenweiss2[:^(]
First things first. Check the engine code under no.3 spark plug. Out with the sandpaper and tell us what you see. At this stage, I think it is a 1.8 block.
I can understand your disappointment with the final power figures but are you just chasing numbers now because you feel you need to because its lower than what you hoped for, you say the car is a lot better to drive than it was previously, ok it may not be perfect but i think if you want it that way you are going to have to travel some distance Also it may be 9bhp over a standard car when new but the chances of it being 112bhp now are pretty slim so the power gain is larger than you give it credit for, as a reference my 180k original engine that i bought with no service history made 106bhp last year, should imagine yours was probably at around the same figure as another 180k car made 102bhp
You certainly have had a bit of a rough time with all the problems you have encountered. It is a real pity that you do not have a contact locally that is clued up on these vehicles. I am too far away to offer any physical help though. It can be a nightmare trying to get your point and wishes across to some mechanics and garages. A lot of the success of these tuning mods is down to careful planning and sourcing the correct bits and pieces. One wrong part can negate the benefit of all the others. I have a conversion on this weekend myself. Nice mk2 golf Driver with tired std 1.8 carb engine is getting replaced with a low mileage Digi PB bottom end, I will be fitting a ported head, cam, weber carb, 4 branch, lightened flywheel, gti gearbox and shafts. I have sourced all bits and also prepared everything over a few hours so I know the car will be in and out this weekend. On a brighter note. All this work you have had done and paid for will be helping the country out of recession!
As it is a recon engine it may have a 1.8 code block, but internally could be anything, could be fitted with the low comp pistons out of a single point engine, could be a 1.6 crank and pistons. A lot of unknowns that could easily have been noted by someone that knows there stuff.
