Using ME7 As Ignition Driver

So, I can't really decide where this thread will go, so I'll try here. Feel free to move it though.

I tried asking this question on Club Polo but didn't get too far. Nor did I get too far with NefMoto. No-one seems to really know.

So right, bear with me here..

I'm curious to go back to using the ECU as the ignition driver - I'm not wanting to use it for injectors, so that's okay.

I'm wanting to know what the ECU uses to calculate the timing tables. It's already got RPM since the crank sensor is bolted on, but the timing measuring block is all over the place. Bare in mine that's the only input. There's no TB, no throttle position sensor, no MAP.

Just curious what the ECU needs as an input to make it vary timing; or if there's a way to turn it into a standalone system.

The manifold already has tapins on it (to balance that carbs with), but can turn this into a vacuum line for the MAP sensor - it's got two rubber o-rings, so won't be hard to get a seal on some pipe for the tapin's on the runners.

It's already got the 60-2 wheel on it, so the ECU sees revs. Is the cam sensor not just for sequential injection though? Isn't a requirement I didn't think?
Otherwise, I can mock it up to fit. Got a AVY head sitting, so can butcher the cams to fit into the AFH head.

Can make the old driveby wire system work too, I can probably get that linked up to the current cable throttle.

After some digging, there's 4 tracks on the Throttle Body. Constant resistance of 1.19kOhms between lines 6 and 2.

Line 4 at idle - ie 0% TP Position has 330 Ohms, 0 Ohms at WOT.
Line 1 at idle - ie 0% TP Position has 0 Ohms, 330 Ohms at WOT.

Reading the 1800 pages of Bosch documentation, it's to provide a backup should one line fail - a limp home mode. The resistance is linear, just opposing. Doesn't look too hard to replicate on the CBR Carbs, can make up some resistances and get a linear sweep from a variable resistor.

How does the engine see load though? Is it TB position - ie airflow, or pedal position, seeing as it's driveby wire.

What happens if it looses the pedal?

Think it's going to need:
Knock sensor
Inlet temp - MAP (Same sensor according to Nige on CP)
TB Position
Engine Temp

Maybe DBW sensor.

Will the MAP pulse too much if it's just joined in like vac advance?

Even if I can get a linear curve that changes depending on load I'm onto a winner!

Mapping it can be done later..

Someone said:
fuel pump is working ! turned out to be a dodgy relay so was a quick fix as i had spares
first time I've heardit running tonight and now i just can wait to get it finished, DBW is next on the list, so if anyone has an idea on that let me know

So it appears that the car will run WITHOUT the throttle pedal being connected - that's interesting.

So that must mean it's got a steady ignition timing. Will it change based on MAP reading and revs though?

Only one way to find out...

 

Thanks for your help! The lack of solid English in the documentation put me off a little and I got a little confused.

I've never done anything like this before - and it appears no-one else has either, that's why it's hard to find anything conclusive.

I searched for ignition and load previously, but got a little confused, so much to take in!

I'm going to work just now, I'll try again when I get home.

 

No longer exists! I've got a copy, but the translation isn't perfect English, which gets me confused..

 

Okay, so I've had a gander and been reading more. The link you posted I traced back and found the same copy I'd been reading, so that's good.

Was looking at the bits you referred to, too.

Found a copy with a little more insight:
http://www.cepavw.org/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=22354

The Function and Data Sheet proved very useful:
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9Dn9VrTw7AHTFNkdWxRNFRURlc1aEJSTTIxc2dWZw

On Page 627 of 1327, Ignition starts:
NMOT SWADAP EIN engine speed
TMOT SWADAP EIN Engine temperature

Basic Ignition Angle:
LAMBAS SWADAP EIN basic Lambda
NMOT SWADAP EIN engine speed
RL SWADAP EIN relative air charge
ZWGRU ZWGRU AUS basic ignition angle
ZWNWS ZWGRU LOK basic ignition angle with camshaft control

Ignition at Start:
B LLREIN LLRMD EIN Condition idle speed control is active
NMOT SWADAP EIN engine speed
TANS SWADAP EIN Intake air temperature
TMST GGTFM EIN engine temperature at start

CWKRNLR FW code word for limp home in case of 1 out of 2 knock sensors fails

So,
Lambda
Engine Speed - got
Relative Air Charge - Throttle position?!
Intake Air Temp - got
Engine Temp - got
Knock x 2.

This ME7 is a seriously clever bit of kit though, keep digging to find just how much it can do! It's so clever, why is aftermarket better than this?!

The PWG has two potentiometers, which are independently supplied with 5V from the control unit. Poti 2 possesses an additional resistor of the size of the track resistor, so that its characteristic displays only half the gradient as compared to that of poti 1.

Do you think this is feasible?

 

Based on your questions, why you want to do actually stick with and "E-Gas" controller, when your modifications are outside the scope of what this controller was meant to do in the first place?

What, you have a post 2000 model year vehicle and running carbs?

 

Because I want to try something that no-one's done before. Any the ECU is sitting taking up space; I've still got the original loom and sensors, so why not try?!

I only want ignition, so it's only half the battle.

But yes, I do. I can get the AFR pretty close to stoich to not kill the cat. It'll be fine.

It's a learning curve, why not try something new?

 

The requests sounds to me as " I have an 1080p HD TV and I want the LCD screen to show black and white with mono sound only and I wonder why the HD TV forum does not want to know".
The very fact you are running carbs, defeats the whole idea why there was a fuel injection controller in the first place. Running stoich is not the most efficent way to convert NOx, HC and CO and the OE engine controller tends to have a feature that can alternate and bias the fuel control. Plus with carbs the larger fuel droplets are not as evenly distrubuted as in a PFI system and regualry fall out of the air stream at low air speeds and puddle on the inlet - so the ultimate CO/HC generator and MOT fail.

So how do you plan to get this ECU to work out the aircharge or relative load, when you have removed the MAF as a reference, intake ducting, original plenum system/TB location, pedal and E-gas throttle module and added an "unknown" air tract in the form of carbs, that are not connected in anyway to the controller?

An Alfa 2.0 TS ME7 strategy book is no good in such a case.

You need a SEM to run the ignition system based on throttle vs engine speed and apart from the vehicle mods as NON-MOTable, you will be fine.

Sorry to be blunt.

 

I understand where you're coming from, yes.

But that's what I'm saying, I know the carbs are effectively a step backwards, but it runs, and it runs well for what it is. I'm enjoying the learning curve behind it. So what if I want to try something new?

I'm asking questions in hope of answers.

The car never had a MAF.

But according to the documentation, it seems to think that the position of the throttle plate, the volume of the plenum all give defining characteristics in the amount of relative pressure to the MAP sensor.

I'm guessing the valve on the MAP and the combined position of the Throttle Plates - ie TPS will give load.

That's why I'm asking this question. I fully understand that the OE system is better, that injection is a better way all round, but until I go ITB's, this is a fun learning curve.