16v Starter Motor Options

Discussion in 'Mk2' started by Sidney37, Jun 2, 2013.

  1. Sidney37 New Member

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    Hi all,

    The starter motor on my 90 spec k-jet ABF is suffering from reduced ability when hot so it's time for a change.

    The part number of the current one is 055 911 023 MX.

    I've heard that I can use one from a GTD to give a bit more power but can anyone tell me the correct part number of the one I would need?

    Only one I can find is 068 911 023 G, is this the correct one?

    Or can anyone suggest an alternative?

    All help greatly appreciated :)
     
  2. rubjonny

    rubjonny Administrator Admin

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    a new std mk2 16v starter will be more than good enough, most others are no good anyway due to them not having the required 2nd spade for the cold start system. make sure its proper 16v starter as its a bit better than an 8v, but tbh I had 8v one on my 16v and it worked just fine so main thing is you get one in good nick
     
  3. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    The starter motor that I tend to recommend for ABF conversions on K-Jet/020gearbox is the unit that is fitted to MK3 Golf 8vs fitted with the 020 gearbox.
    These are planetary starters and deliver more starting torque that the original direct drive unit. When the engine is tuned, this type of starter adds extra robustness against kick back especially when the spark advance has been globally increased.

    A less durable version is available at motorfactors and there are few rebuilt ones that can be had exchanged. Or find a Mk3 8v GTI or GL manual in the breakers to donate this part and you would be go to go generally, once you also remove and include solenoid jack connector (see note below on connector shape).

    An example of this starter is shown below taken from my "JORAN 170ps ABF conversion in a day thread" The starter body usually smaller then the original Golf 2 part and has a square connecter for KL50 (starter solenoid terminal)

    HTH :thumbup:
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2013
  4. rubjonny

    rubjonny Administrator Admin

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    trouble is if you do that, you loose the extra spade you need for the cold start system, and so 5th injector will no longer work! as i say mk2 16v starter worked great on my abf while it was on k-jet :thumbup:

    But with the mk3 starter you could tap a wire into the starter red/black and put a diode on it then run the 5th injector black wire to that, this will work fine
     
  5. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    With a direct drive starter you are likely to run into starter kickback when you start tweaking the timing with an ABF Kjet car for optimum performance. I have had this problem with all the cars that I have fettled with ABF on Kjet. You did have a combination like this but was mostly likely to be running 'Hanyes' settings for the lower compression 1.8KR engine, hence the reason you may not have experienced starter kick back on the stack part.
    To overcome the issue of the crank start trigger, as I did for the original how to ABF Kjet car, from running optimised spark advance ( global dizzy rotation), was on the MK3 8v part, the connection for the crank cold start trigger had the female terminal removed and it was simply bolted to the switched live on the motor.

    On an engine where I can adjust the spark tables separate from cranking start tables ( digifant 3.x/SEM etc) the starter choice is not so much of an problem for cranking, although I do pefer the crank speed and modern sound of the newer Golf 3 gear reduction starter motor.
     
  6. rubjonny

    rubjonny Administrator Admin

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    if you attach the 5th injector wire direct to the trigger feed on the starter, it will fire every time you floor it! this is down to the cold throttle enrichment valve sending 12v down the black wire. 2 options either disconnect the valve, or fit a diode like i say :)
     
  7. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    Switched live on the motor Jon. I am not talking about KL50 or worse yet KL30.

    If you look at my picture and study the RH Mk3 020 starter closely you can see I had made a connection for this ( red insulation), when that starter was used on my ABF K-Jet WOLF (Atlas Grey car).
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2013
  8. rubjonny

    rubjonny Administrator Admin

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    ah so there is an ability to connect to the 15a signal on the mk3 starters then? thats good news, skip rubbish mk2 starter and proceed directly to mk3 :thumbup:
     
  9. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    To help aid the OP and anybody else reading, who did not understand my terminology, here is the picture labelled showing where the Cold Start (CST) trigger should be fitted to a junkyard MK3 8v starter if you are using KJet or any other ECU that requires a 'Hi' starting flag.

    [​IMG]

    HTH :thumbup:
     
  10. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    That should have been your question, so the answer as I have demonstrated is yes :thumbup:
     
  11. Sidney37 New Member

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    Guys this is excellent advice, thank you both :) looks like a weekend trip around the local breakers to see what I can find, after Players of course!
     
  12. murph81 Forum Member

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    I fitted a Mk3 Vento diesel starter to my Mk1 16v 020 box and its great, its bigger than the ones shown above.
     
  13. Jon Olds Forum Junkie

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    All good info. I used a diesel one on my race 2L16V. Its about an inch longer than a std 020 GTI one. Going to look out for a mk3 one now.
     
  14. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    Diesel units are bigger and have more cranking torque and were the option to solve kick back on optimised ABF motor. I realised the Mk3 GTI 8v sounded different in starting to a MK2 8v/16v and I disassembled a starter to find a planetary gear set similar to what I been accustomed to in Toyota/Mazda/Nissan/Honda FWD 1993-onwards vehicles.
    It was from here on I started using these starters in ABF conversions from 2002 where the 020 gearbox was retained and of course where I was fine tuning global dizzy advance.
    There are plentiful and available in any E827 8v engined MK3/Seat running a 020 gearbox.
     
  15. STU

    Stu Forum Junkie

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    Hi - just spotted this thread, rarely post on here anymore as I no longer own any GTIs and the only VW I have is a van... lol

    Anyway, I found a Mk2 starter motor in my garage the other day which I bought from Craig 'Tubthumped' (remember him old timers...?) years ago for my Mk2 16v (with a 2.0L 6A) as I was having this problem with hot starting after fitting a 'man in the shed' head etc. I never got around to fitting it, but I'm sure it was supposedly a good one from a diesel Mk2, how can I tell without a standard one to compare it to?

    Cheers
    Stu
     
  16. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    Stu,

    The motor body on a diesel start is longer than a petrol Golf 2 020 starter.

    [​IMG]
     
  17. STU

    Stu Forum Junkie

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    Ah, ok - thanks. I'll have a look at it to confirm. I just wondered as someone might find it useful if they had a high-comp engine? :thumbup:
     
  18. richie1893 Forum Member

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    Can this be done to a Mk2 diesel starter. I have started experiencing this problem this week. Starter motor is having problems starting. I have high compression pistons fitted which isn't helping. I did have a Mk2 diesel starter fitted and it worked every time but as it doesn't have that extra wire for fifth injector she would run like a ***** for the first couple of minutes so switched back to 16v starter Nov last year and she's started struggling now.
    What is it you've done exactly, just added the extra wire or something else?
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2013
  19. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    Just add the a suitable wire lead to the switched live.
     
  20. Sidney37 New Member

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    Put the mk3 motor on today and it works a treat :) sounds very different to the mk2!
     

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