A VW 16v camshaft study.

Discussion in '16-valve' started by Toyotec, Feb 9, 2008.

  1. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    Yes. Same as my alias on here at hotmail dot com.
     
  2. gti16 New Member

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    Nellis Thanks for your measurements camshafts, but I wanted to ask:
    Have you come to make a measurement with kr head and abf cams?
    because kr exhaust valves have a diameter of 28mm and a height of 98.2 mm and of abf are 27mm in diameter and 97.95 mm in height, 0,25mm more lift, I think the valve lift and duration should be greater than abf head?
     
  3. mkendra New Member

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    Hei!

    I'm a newbie but anyways I have camshafts with numbers 051 101 A and 051 102 are these camshafts from ABF engine? If yes, then I would swap those. I currently have stock 9a camshafts.
     
  4. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    051 101 A is a late 6A/9A, ACE and ADL intake camshaft.
    I do not know what the specifications are on these, buy suspect less lift and possibly a shorter inlet duration that has less over lap and early closing compared the the ABF only 051 101 intake cam :thumbup:
     
  5. daniboy1_2_3 Forum Member

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    A bewildering amount of information in this thread. Im looking into the best camshafts for a 16vg60 engine running a g lader. In the future I may well be upgrading to a Rotrex supercharger which is also crank driven but has a much higher output than a g lader and capable of prodcing a lot more boost/power. With this in mind is it worth me shelling out a lot of money for a set of these;

    http://www.bar-tek-tuning.com/cgi-b...file=2&gesamt_zeilen=0Tsuche--16vg60 camshaft

    It states that there only to be used for 16VG60 engines fitted with a G lader.

    There are also these;

    http://www.bar-tek-tuning.com/cgi-b...file=1&gesamt_zeilen=0Tsuche--16vg60 camshaft

    My thoughts were that buying a new set would mean no wear as by now id imagine most second hand sets of KR/ABF cams are showing their age, I may be wrong as im not sure how prone they are to wearing out.
    The main issue with buying the 16VG60 camshafts is are they going to be redundant if I was to upgrade to a rotrex supercharger further down the line.
    Has anyone ordered from Schrick directly? or know of a german supplier as I know someone in Germany that could possibly buy them for me. Thanks.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2015
  6. Ade.Mk1 Forum Member

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    That is a serious increase in duration over standard, about 50 degrees on both, do you think it would idle with that much ?
    The extra lift would be useful though.

    Would be interested to see what other folks think about these as well


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  7. daniboy1_2_3 Forum Member

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    Hi Ade, I was assured by Bartek that those cams work well with a 16VG60 engine but who knows really given how different every 16VG60 engine is put together and mapped etc. From what I have read recently its more the angle between inlet and exhaust cam lobes that effects the performance as this dictates how much overlap between inlet and exhaust valves there is. Im still reading up on the subject and trying to understand the positive/negative effects upgrading to ne of these cams might have. It all seems to be trade offs between where you want max bhp and torque. I think so long as I don't go with anything too aggressive the gains should be worth what I lose elsewhere.
     
  8. Ade.Mk1 Forum Member

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    Just out of interest I asked Bar-Tek about the duration and lift to get their view, I got this back:

    "these cams are much better in performance as KR cams.
    The minium disctance between piston adn valves needs to be checked."

    So I am not sure that they really know or have any data to back that statement up !!
     
  9. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    danboy1_2_3,'

    As said on your other thread, if you have not actually driven this car or a good working version of car like yours before, I would suggest refiting your OE cams to the engine, get it mapped propery, then go out and drive it!
    Mapped right, a G Lader 16v is a marked driven feel difference from a NASP KR 16v, 9A/6A or ABF motor.
    Horsepower numbers are meaningless without a good calibration to cover any engine condition safely and the right gearbox ratios to suit vehicle purpose and weight.
    You can easily measure the OE cams at the base circle and then at the the maximum lift point, subtract the delta frm the base circle and see if it lost any lift from ware. I wager the answer will be none.
     
  10. daniboy1_2_3 Forum Member

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    I appreciate your feedback and can see your point. My problem is the set of KR camshafts I had have been measured and found to be out of tolerance meaning I have to purchase another set. I could buy another set of KR cams and find that they are just as worn meaning ive wasted more money. Id heard good things about schrick camshafts and just wanted to find out if they are worth investing in. I was hopeing to gather some information on them and decide my next move. They are an awful lot of money and without any definitive evidence that ill be getting improvements over standard cams then I guess id have to try find another second hand set.
     
  11. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    Out of tolerance by how much?

    And why only Schricks? I sent you a pm suggesting alternatives that are just as good.

    Saying that, there is a chap in Wembley that runs Schrick 268 on his G60 16v Rallye.
    That car runs a BBM charger with a pulley to deliver 1.2 bar of boost. Well fast on the road IMO and starting to feel a tad like my WOLF R when it is driven on the 1.2bar setting. Unfortunately we had to lock to engine speed to 6400rpm max as revving to 7200rpm, where the engine was happy to 6600rpm + meant we blew up the charger seals. The boost was also turned down via the pulley to 1bar as well.

    By contrast Trev16v had a stock version of the same engine with KR cams, however the both cars were never tested on the same dyno to extrapolate drive feel and see any difference in torque characteristics.

    The charger + added to the 16v motor, from a seat of the pants will make the biggest drive feel differnece, even with so called "used and aged std cams".

    I cannot force you do understand what I am saying though. Your money an your car :thumbup:
     
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  12. daniboy1_2_3 Forum Member

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    I haven't spent the money yet :) this is why ive opted to look into things further and take on board advice from others. Im not going to waste my money that's for sure as its too hard to come by lol. Not sure if I mentioned this before but im seriously considering upgrading to a rotrex supercharger further down the line which has a much greater output and can be revved higher than the g lader. Ive mentioned schrick as that's what my local engine specialist recommended to me but ill consider other options if they are tried and tested. Im in no doubt that fitting a good set of KR cams will be more than sufficient considering I haven't even driven the car yet but seeing as though I don't have a good set at the moment I thought id take this opportunity to explore alternatives. Im not going to drop all that money on an aftermarket set without knowing im going to see some good performance gains and so far there is nothing to suggest I will.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2015
  13. Sirguydo

    Sirguydo Fastest milkman in the West Paid Member

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    I've got a few sets of KR cams in the cupboard just find the cam full lift height and I'll take a look at some of them next week :thumbup: if you're interested 50 for a pair
     
  14. daniboy1_2_3 Forum Member

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    Hi mate, that sounds good to me :) are you able to check them yourself for wear if I find out the specs?
     
  15. Sirguydo

    Sirguydo Fastest milkman in the West Paid Member

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    Yes I can just mic the lobes to check for wear , or ask the guys what else needs checking and I'll do my best :thumbup:
     
  16. daniboy1_2_3 Forum Member

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    Great stuff, ill find out the specs and let you know :)
     
  17. daniboy1_2_3 Forum Member

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    Going back to what ade said, the information ive gotten back from Bar-Tek is all very subjective without any real numbers to back anything up. There just saying all get more bhp and torque but don't seem to have any kind of test data to back any of this up. Ive made my mind up to stick with the KR cams for now, get them fitted, run the engine in and think about messing around with it once ive actually used it for a while. Just out of interest is there anything to be gained from advanceing these cams or changing the relationship between inlet/exhaust cam positions?
     
  18. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    Maybe retarding the intake to be open even when the piston is starting to come up, may help.

    I would fit to the engine as per OE, optimise the engine settings and calibration, drive and understand how it feels and then experiment.
     
  19. mr hillclimber Club GTI Supporter and Sponsor

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    I wouldn't go that radical on inlet cam with forced induction...the 268 pair maybe....it wont matter what charger you use in the future.

    Like Eddie has touched on tho...I'd run std cams initially on forced induction...the torque increase right through is likely to be enough...there's only a certain amount you can put down through a FWD chassis in real world terms

    O.E cams are very durable...I've yet to see a worn set...normally in very good condition.

    As for quoted duration...remember the o.e cams are quoted at 1mm lift...Nellis put up a chart measured off the seat...KR cams are around 250 measured that way...so 268 or 276 isnt a big jump...tho interms of area its a lot on a multi valve engine.

    I'd start with o.e cams and go from there....plus while schrick are excellent they're very expensive...Piper or Newman make decent stuff at a lot less for the future..."if" you need them.
     
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  20. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    Supercharging F/I and Turbo F/I require cams that are on different LCAs.
    With Supercharging you can use NASP cams with long durations on the intake as you do not have a turbine blocking the exhaust path.
    This is why BarTek is quoting those spec of cams for that type of engine.
     

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