Audi S2 Brakes on a Mk2 Golf - Photos!

Discussion in 'Chassis' started by pj_sibley, Jan 9, 2011.

  1. pj_sibley

    pj_sibley Forum Member

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    A friend of mine owns an Audi S2 but runs Porsche monoblock front brakes, rather than the standard Girling 60 2-pot items. So, it seemed like a great opportunity to give them a go on my Mk2 Golf, complete with carriers and a set of Pagid pads :thumbup: Being a late Mk2, mine has the 22mm master cyclinder, so of course I was interested to find out what happened to the 'length' of the brake pedal, given that the S2 ran a much larger 25mm master cylinder.

    Anyway, to cut a long story short, the conversion was a great success! We gave the Girling 60s a thorough clean and once-over, checked the pistons, seals and bleed valves, cleaned up the carriers and pads, then trial fitted to check clearances etc. I was already running G60 variant Girling 54 calipers over 280mm discs fortunately, so didn't need to buy any extra bits!

    For those of you who are interested in this upgrade, I've included some comparison photographs below. The Girling 54s weighed in at 3.0kg, the Girling 60s at 4.4kg, so 50% heavier from an un-sprung mass perspective. However, the significant increase in overall pad area (and hence thermal mass) somewhat makes up for this. It all fits nicely under my 15" Borbet Cs too.

    Upon test driving them after fitment, the increase in braking force was very noticable and it was still possible to lock the fronts up within the limit of the brake pedal travel. The brake bias front/rear felt fine too. The 'length' of the pedal was only marginally different from before to be honest. All I need now is a decent set of discs and pads....

    S2 carrier bolted to Mk2 hub, sitting over 280mm disc:

    [​IMG]

    S2 carrier on the left, G60 carrier on the right:

    [​IMG]

    Same again from a different angle:

    [​IMG]

    S2 pad above, G60 pad below:

    [​IMG]

    S2 caliper (Girling 60) bolted up to the carrier and connected using braided lines:

    [​IMG]
     
  2. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    I like this, well done. It's a really uncommon mod, we hardly hear much of it. Sounds like the ultimate Mk2 Golf 4-stud OEM 280 upgrade to me, particularly with that size of pads, better heat capacity in those & more friction.

    Are they 2-pot calipers? It would be interesting to know the pot diameter if you get the chance to check (for maths on pot areas, what's been gained etc).
     
  3. theboymike Forum Junkie

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    Good work - is this purely a bolt on mod then?

    Looks like a fair old upgrade judging by the pad area.. although don't fancy all that extra unsprung mass [:s]
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2011
  4. rubjonny

    rubjonny Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    they're marked 'G60' which i assumed was german for dual 60, so 30mm each? as above the argument is yeah they're a bit bigger, but they also weigh a lot more. so its a case of is the slight increase in braking worth it over the larger weight
     
  5. 99hjhm Forum Member

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    The pistons are different sizes IIRC, Some say this causes an issue due to the calipers been rear mounted on a S2, so when front mounting them the pads wear wedge shaped.. Not seen this myself.

    Do you have much of a overhang? Somebody said to me you can use Landrover Discovery pads and they fit the friction area of the disc perfectly? The S2 uses 274 or 2766mm discs?

    Thanks for sharing.
     
  6. Andy947 Forum Addict

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    On the face of it they are a good idea, but they are just WAY to heavy.

    Noticed the extra weight as soon as i drove my MK2 with them fitted.
    Took them off soon after and went back to regular 280's and sold the setup. Wouldn't advise anyone to bother with them.

    The braking is not really any better than 280's with good pads and discs, cos if you can lock the wheels you can't brake any harder. . . .
     
  7. pj_sibley

    pj_sibley Forum Member

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    Thanks for the feedback chaps :thumbup:

    It is indeed a purely bolt on mod, as long as you get the S2 carriers with the Girling 60 calipers. It also requires the use of S2 pads, which are not that common (certainly not many aftermarket options anyway).

    There isn't that much overhang and certainly no evidence (noise) when the brakes are applied. All the threads I've read on this suggest it's fine to run the 280mm discs. The S2 actually ran 276x25mm brake discs, rather than the 280x22mm Golf G60 / Ibiza Cupra items I'm using, so you have to be a bit careful on wearing the pads down to much.

    As for the Girling 60 calipers themselves, they are indeed 2-pots. I believe the pistons are 40 and 45mm in diameter, one being the 'lead' and the other being the 'trailing' piston. This compares to 54mm on the Girling 54 pistons (slighlty different) used on the Mk2 GTi / G60. On the Golf, the calipers are mounted on the front of the disc (rather than on the rear as per the S2 fitment), so the pistons are in fact reversed in order i.e. you put the right hand caliper on the left hand side of the car and vice versa. Given the weight of the car, this switching shouldn't be an issue for performance.

    I'm now looking at upgrading to Brembo Max 280x22mm discs with EBC Yellowstuff pads....
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2011
  8. pj_sibley

    pj_sibley Forum Member

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    I'd have to disagree with this, although it's interesting to hear different experience of the same setup.

    Compared to my orignal G60 setup, the braking is much more progressive and responsive. It just felt much more powerful and usable overall, although I dare say it can differ between cars due to fluid / master cylinder / servo setup etc.
     
  9. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    When you say overhang, is the pad hanging off the inside of the disc or the outside? Or do you mean something else?

    Should work fine as long as you're vigilant with them as you say.

    54mm pots have an effective area of 45.80 sq cm (sectional area, doubled due to single pot caliper design.

    The S2 has an effective area of 56.94mm

    This means that the required pressure at the pedal in theory has increased, against which you've a larger pad area. What's the reality on pedal effort itself? Do you have to push harder to get the higher performance? Or does it come easier?


    I think it's usually the smaller pot that grabs ahead of the larger one. In this instance the swap round will reverse this. I think the purpose of this is to stop the pad wearing in a wedge shape. See what happens :thumbup:
     
  10. pj_sibley

    pj_sibley Forum Member

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    Chris, in answer to your questions:

    The overhang is on the inside edge of the disc, although I will need to take a closer look to check this / how much.

    The reality on pedal effort is difficult to quantify, although I would agree that an increase in pedal pressure is required to achieve the same braking force. However, the brakes overall feel more alive / powerful once pressure is applied and built up. I may consider a larger master cylinder - either 23.8mm from a Mk3 VR6(?) or 25.4mm from an Audi 100Q(?). Both should bolt straight up?
     
  11. 99hjhm Forum Member

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    The caliper weights you gave above, what did that include/not include, will be interesting to compare some of the other caliper weights, CupraR Brembo's etc.
     
  12. pj_sibley

    pj_sibley Forum Member

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    This was for the caliper on its own without bleed screw. No carriers, pads or discs.
     
  13. gunit-84 Forum Member

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    the master cylinder from the audi s2 fit perfect too and is 25mm, mine bolted straight up. i also run these calipers and felt an improvement over standard 280's the only down side to them is lack of after market pad choice with yellow stuff being the only option.

    as for the piston arrangement im not sure how i have mine fitted?? should the larger piston grab first or second? good info all round in this thread tho :-)
     
  14. kevfawcett New Member

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    I have this setup on my mk2, running greenstuff pads and noticed a massive improvement over g60's.

    I would also like to upgrade the m/c, what do people recommend? gunit-84 - is the s2 one a good choice?

    Kev
     
  15. frechem New Member

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    This is a fairly common mod in the States. The Girling 60's can be found on few different models of Audi's for a number of years and there are several option for pads. There is a ton of information on them if you search Girling 60 or G60 brakes on Vortex.
     
  16. pj_sibley

    pj_sibley Forum Member

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    Glad there's a few of us in agreement :thumbup:

    As for the master cylinder, they're few and far between from what I can tell. I think the S2 item (25.4mm) was also found on a few other Audis, so worth hunting around.
     
  17. gunit-84 Forum Member

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    yep the s2 one is working a treat! got it cheaper than the g60 item everyones after [:D] i decided to use the s2 one as it was designed for those calipers and has a lot of fluid to shift, however ive also used a standard golf master cylinder and it was still acceptable with only a little more pedal travel
     
  18. pj_sibley

    pj_sibley Forum Member

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    I've managed to source a genuine 25.4mm Audi S2 (ABY) master cylinder with accompanying fluid reservoir [:D] Picking up this evening, so might get a chance to fit at the weekend and provide some feedback.

    Is the late Mk2 GTi servo 9" or do I need to fit a Mk3 item instead (in which case my friend has one spare!).
     
  19. rubjonny

    rubjonny Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    all mk2 1.8 use 9" servo, even carby :)
     
  20. strimmer Forum Member

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    From my bookmarks section a one page guide to the Girling 60 upgrade, with handy part numbers and a list of possible donar cars half way down. :thumbup:

    http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/a3b4/girling-g60-brake-caliper-swap.htm

    I tried to purchase a new MC, quoted over 140 and only available by importing from USA, fortunately bought one from American ebay for about 12 including shipping.

    But, when it arrived only has two ports not four. [:^(]
     

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