Ball joint extenders (split from Motorsport Kit Porn thread)

Discussion in 'Chassis' started by NickBishBashBosch, Apr 8, 2012.

  1. s1m0n Forum Member

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  2. sparrow Paid Member Paid Member

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    Yes, I see now. It appears I read engineering diagrams better after a couple of glasses of wine. :thumbup:

    The key to that would be whether or not tie rod ends are available with the correcit ID for the bolt.
     
  3. Dave

    Dave Pedantic Old Fart Paid Member

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    Here is a design for Andy 947.

    I don't know if anyone has found a 12mm bore Rod End, with a 14mm thread, to suit the standard track rods? I have not, but Andy might have, from his suggestion below.

    I don't recon on using a 'bolt', as Andy suggests, but a 12mm shoulder capscrew is very much something I would use. The head size is larger than a standard capscrew so gives good area on top of the steering arm.

    I have drawn in a Hirschmann SFXCP 14..RS Rod End as, with the two seals fitted onto the 14mm rod end, one gets nice sleeves that size it down to 12mm bore.

    The bottom of the taper in the upright is a very close tolerance on 12mm and shoulder caps are very tight as well.

    I believe that the bolt head will square things up OK, but if one is concerned, then a 13mm dia recess could be machined et the lower edge of the head.

    If anyone can find 14mm percision shoulder caps, please let me know!


    [​IMG]
     
  4. Dave

    Dave Pedantic Old Fart Paid Member

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    Simon.

    I will continue the upright mods when it's warmer in the shed, and my arm and shoulder stop hurting! :lol: I have completed one upright already!:thumbup:

    Dave.
     
  5. Andy947 Forum Addict

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    Bolt was 'generic' for a suitable tensile fastener. Large shoulder is a good idea, but a washer would also suit the purpose.

    May I suggest that there is a spacer fitted between the joint and the hub, to allow unrestricted articulation of the joint, and also to tune the position? These could also serve the purpose of supporting and centering the joint if the 'bolt' diameter is a little small, if machined to fit.

    Nothing wrong with a perfect solution such as a taper bolt etc, but a practical 'fit for purpose' one is just as good. I'm much more in the camp of the latter.

    :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2012
  6. s1m0n Forum Member

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    Hi Dave,

    Ah, that makes sense, glad to see it's not been forgotten about, many years ago I modified a pair of MK1 uprights for my Scirocco, so I was interested to see how you approach it.

    Cheers for now


    Just as an aside, I know "thou shall not weld cast iron" but the VW uprights whilst "cast" are of a material that seems to take to welding without too much trouble.

    The MK1 pair I welded (very badly) back in 95(ish) I took into work in 08 to dump into the scrap bin, before doing this I put 'em in the press and did some impromptu destructive testing... Or I should say I tried to, as they didn't seem to want to "destruct", preferring to bend in various locations but not near the welds...

    Anyway, just a bit of food for thought.

    Cheers

    Simon
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2012
  7. Dave

    Dave Pedantic Old Fart Paid Member

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    Simon.

    With regard to 'Cast Iron' uprights. I guess you mentioned this having read Hugo's (HPR) quote below, about welding and scrutineers? I ment to comment before, but forgot.

    MkII uprights are not cast iron. They are steel! Thus, as you already know, are eminently weldable, with the correct proceedures and consumables. Hugo's scrutineer was wrong in practice, though he may have been right in principle? Even though they are steel and weldable, if I were the scrutineer, I would have asked for a certified weld proceedure and NDT results, for critical items like these load carrying members.

    That some components, like these, are cast iron, seems to be a common assumption. I remember a similar discussion, on here, regarding hubs, from a couple of years ago.

    Dave.
     
  8. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    In an unpaid / nominally paid motorsport environment, you 'get what you pay for'.

    Knowledge, diligence, correctness and consistency are not exam or pay-driven (club motorsport's expensive enough and simply cannot afford it), hence you can get laypersons. Sometimes they get it wrong.
     
  9. s1m0n Forum Member

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    Chris,

    I quite agree, though I have to say (at least in a club environment) I'd rather they were on the OTT side of safety - Well most of the time anyway ;)

    Dave,

    I also recall that conversation, I used to be on (here) quite a lot but what with work pressure and all the repetitive questions about wide-track (etc) I stopped coming on. John (rubjonny) has a lot more patience with 'em than I do lol...

    But it seems like things have improved, lot of good stuff being discussed now!

    Anyway, to get back on topic, I think they are quite a “nice” steel because my welding of that first pair was NOT done “well” (not even remotely well in fact) and (considering that) they still resisted the attentions of the 25 tonne press very admirably, as I said, bending rather than failing.

    I also tried “bending” one back and forth as it were, I was able to get this one to fail but the failure when it eventually came was just under the strut mounting (all my welding was around the lower half of the hub).

    If I was going to do it again I'd either fab completely new parts or modify TT/S3/R32/Cupra R units.

    I'd also want to use the aforementioned TT/S3/R32/Cupra R “quick” rack too.

    Cheers for now.

    Simon
     
  10. TAS V6 New Member

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    I'm building Rallye R32 DSG biturbo.
    I measured that I need 70mm longer lower balljoints to keep lover contol arma parallel to ground


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    So I ordered custom extended balljoints

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    they are made from stronger material than regular ballojoints.
     
  11. Tristan Paid Member Paid Member

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    Ordered from whom?
     
  12. TAS V6 New Member

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    From company which produces balljoints in Italy.

    I ordedered 70 mm extended , but it's possible to order different dimensions
     
  13. Sirguydo

    Sirguydo Fastest milkman in the West Paid Member

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    I thought about this in the past but somebody's actually done it .
    They do them as a one off ?
    How much ?
    They look pretty good .
     
  14. TAS V6 New Member

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    Yes they are on off , special order

    They are 60 each.
     
  15. Sirguydo

    Sirguydo Fastest milkman in the West Paid Member

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    Doesn't seem to expensive if they're good quality , are you happy with them ?
     
  16. Tristan Paid Member Paid Member

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    Seems very cheap. Italy is a fantastic producer of metal work.

    Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk
     
  17. Sirguydo

    Sirguydo Fastest milkman in the West Paid Member

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    We need to see what our Dave thinks of them :thumbup:
     
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  18. vw_singh Events Team Paid Member

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    These are my thoughts.

    The original ball joint being much shorter has a lot less leverage on it from the hub. Your Special joints being much longer will see greater loads especially just under the pinch clamp on the hub where mine failed.

    Weld in types typically have a much wider diameter and taper up to the hub. This makes them much stronger near the hub and being welded reduces fatigue from movement.

    I'm sure dave or someone else more qualified than myself can elaborate in more detail.

    Gurds
     
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  19. TAS V6 New Member

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    that's why I posted this here , to hear opinions.

    My car isn't finished yet so I didn't try them.

    My theory is that I never seen cracked stock balljoint when someone crashes car.
    After crash , we can see bent rims, bent lover control arms , bent shocks also cracked balljoint housing , but never cracked balljoint ''shaft''.
    There is much more stress wen you hit something than in driving conditions

    Diameter of balljoint is 19mm , OEM shocks has 20mm telescope (cromed part) and it is very long.
     
  20. Hotgolf

    Hotgolf Paid Member Paid Member

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    The difference here is there's no direct 'shear point' under the hub like the ones that are machined with too small a radius going to a larger diameter. In effect these shouldn't snap in the same place but wil probably deform slightly first(bend)
    Most of the ones I e seen, and seen broken have all snapped at the shear point. Makes me think if people are just banging them out without actually engineering out any issues, then saying 'Motorsport use only'.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2015
    vw_singh likes this.

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