Hello, as per title really. After over 30 rallies, the oh-so trusty ABF in my fathers Ibiza rally car is showing signs of tiredness (compression is down on cyl no 4). The two options are to rebuild the current engine, steel rods forged pistons nice head, cams and dth itbs, OR try something a little different and build an FSI. In order for me to help make up my mind, thought Id find out what peoples opinion is of the FSI in race/rally trim. A good head design with 33.9mm and 28mm in/exh valves as standard and an aluminium block are the main plus points in my opinion, but what about any reasons for not going down this route? The engine has been around for some years now and Im surprised that it hasnt become a popular a conversion yet, is there a reason for this? Saying that, I understand a lot of the hillclimb lads are putting the FSI head on their 1.8 blocks. But what about the complete engine. Budget is finite and as with the 3 Ibiza rally cars we have built, we always explore the OE avenue before going aftermarket. In my mind the FSI engine would go a little something like this. Head: *Block off port injection holes *Suitable cams (Cat cams are the only company that I have found?) *Throttle bodies (MTS motorsport sell an FSI manifold and various sized single body throttle bodies) any other companies offering an ITB option? *Standard valve sizes, having done some comparison with other 4 cylinder 2 litre 16 valves engines, I reckon their pretty good. * Some porting if necessary. Bottom end: *Wet sump, 1.8t oil pump and oil filter housing, will a 1.8t sump fit as well? *Standard rods and pistons? *Standard OE main end caps, aftermarket girdle?!? *Standard crank. So how does that look? Im considering using standard crank, rods and pistons because the CR is at 11:5 already and I read/saw some pictures that suggested that piston and rod design and combined weight werent too bad. Ive read a lot about the whole engine girdle thing with people/companies extolling the virtues of fitting one. Im not interested in high rpms or a particularly high power figure so is it entirely necessary to upgrade from the standard girdle? Am I wasting my time? should I be shot in the head for even considering a different engine to the ABF?! (2 litre N/A is a requirement BTW). Any advice on the main body of the post, not the sentence before this one would be greatly appreciated! Thanks, Reian
Well , I'm knee deep into my hybrid , using a 2.0 06b bottom end and ABF head , and it's not the cheapest way to go . If your ABF is intact , a set of rings , bearings , and reface of the valves etc isn't going to break the bank , and it's all stuff you're used to , that works well.
I do believe new pistons will be needed if you use outboard injection, not 100% sure on this but I think OEM crown geometry is moreso aimed at direct injection for optimum performance, Brian, (Im sure HPR will answer this in a flash)
For ITBs, which means port fuel injection (PFI) operation, you need custom pistons and rods, along a bit of custom headgear including cams. That is what I understand from speaking to HPR on here.
What is standard compression ratio ? I believe the TFSI and FSI heads are slightly different and the TFSI head has the better port angle if I remember correctly so you may want to buy the head and block separately. OR You could try the all alloy 2.0 20v audi engine? If you want to keep things "budget" sticking with the ABF probably the best bet.
The FSI is a great engine and has a head that in STD form flows far better than a ported ABF head, But its not the most straightforward engine to build ....nothing that cant be overcome though.... and cost is also a factor.... Also be aware that there is very little distance for the valvespring / retainer and valveseal to retainer distance certainly with more lift as std and stronger spring forces.... Valve seals are varying in height from ca 9.5 to good 11 mm > use the lowest ones as this saves you some needed space Injector holes can be filled by either an alloy dummy injector or cut tread and mount a bolt ( as on the S2000 heads) Inlet vario camshaft goes to a solid timing Blank of holes in endcover for HPFP and cam adjuster and remove mechanism The N.A FSI is the better head as it has more radius under the valve.... it flows better as a std TFSI head , after porting both heads will flow quite similar STD valves and aftermarket valves flow similar , the STD ones are slightly better in lower lifts and aftermarket valves flow a little more at high lifts....but there is never more than 0.5 cfm inbetween Bottom end The N.A FSI has a cast crank , normally this get replaced by a TFSI forged One. altough for modest power and not to silly revs the cast crank would do the job FSI rods have a tapered small end, this will need pistons that are tapered too and aftermarket N.A pistons are for parallel rods. The std FSI piston you cant use, its indeed 11.5 C.R but the piston shape is no good for port injection > so need aftermarket pistons You can use the 1.8 T oilpump with a sump with bafles and a windage tray OR use a STD FSI oilpump / balance shaft Assy which is mounted with a steel plate ( girdle) between block and assy and all this brings extra strenght to the engineblock and then just use the std FSI sump.
i'm also building a similar engine and have started collecting parts, piston wise i think a lambourghini garlardo uses an identical cylinder head without port injection and a 82.5mm bore, it also has a compression ratio in the 11's. from my research, rods are off the shelf, custom pistons and getting high left cams to work right is the only major issue, but perhaps HPR can go into more detail ?
The older 5.0 litre Gallardo's used Multi Point Injection (MPI) and a 82.5mm piston. Still not cheap to get 4 pistons at just 11:1 CR, then the rest! The expense with the FSI engine, would be the re engineering components to make it a PFI. Then getting it to process the quantity of air and fuel mix to reliably achieve the drive torque at any engine speed or load up to a rev limit. Compared to TFSI powertrains, as these FSI engines were fitted in mass produced family hatchbacks or saloons, were performance was not the object, the scope for tuning products is very small. For a race car with a race car budget, requirements and resources to make one offs, it is possible to create a PFI version of this engine, however for a trackday enthusiast it can be a bit tricky. Perhaps as the engines become older and there is more know how of they can be used in older chassis, then the aftermarket may be more interested in selling internal bits suitable for the 'street'? This is what was found when a few years ago when, I got in touch with HPR to build such a 'street' FSI motor with say 250bhp@7500rpm and around 170-180lbft@6000rpm, using empirical data from Garage Streamline as a reference and the understanding of what torques resulted in the certain levels of vehicle acceleration on a track. It was believed it would not be possible to achieve that level of torque, that high up in the rev range, out of a very heavily modified ABF 2.0 motor, where maybe 230bhp@7600rpm and 165lbft@5600-6200rpm would be achieved. Therefore a mildly modified FSI engine with very little head work looked to be a favourable choice. However the cost of many custom components at the time, made such an engine too expensive for a non competitive track car, so in the end it was cheaper to build a 16vT. That engine went on to deliver at light boost 270bhp@6400rpm and at least 200lbft from 3-6krpm. Of course some may not want boost and would still wish to pursue the FSI-PFI route. It is not that straightforward as far as I know yet.
OEM FSI piston Dummy injector to close off the FSI injector bore Or use an M10 bolt as done on the works S2000 Cylinderheads The Lamborghini Galardo piston has a lower compression height ( iirc, 27.* mm instead of 29.* mm) this means that you need to skim the block by about 2 mm The OEM head flows 140.7 Cfm @ 10`` at 11 mm and that wasnt the most nice casting when meassured.... i wouldnt be surpriced to see some OEM heads flow near 145 cfm ! There is really no need to go high lift cams ....BTCC engines ran 11 mm lift cams and 12/1 CR OEM the cams are 11mm lift @ Inlet and 10 mm @ Exhaust When going for more lift you will find out there is really little space for the spring / retainer/ valveguide and seal.... certainly at the exhaust side.... it means you need to create space... by pressing the valve guides deeper ... and cut valve seats deeper...but now the roll-follower takes another angle, changing the valve motion ratio... The roller need to keep into contact with the cam profile and here the Hydro setup does its work... Be aware that when you buy valvesprings ,often the Valvelift given on the spec sheet are at a certain lenght that is NOT the OEM lenght....
Not a track day car though. Boost will put him in a different class. Need to take that into account. So the comparison would be better against a 1.2 TFSI
No 1980's technology vs 2005+? It is a no brainer really Great list except for the valves. We found that CNC port work +1mm oversized on the intakes did wonders in the flow department. Here are some answers to your questions: 1.8T oil pump will work assuming you are aware of the modifications needed to the block to accept the 1.8T system. You will need the crankshaft snout oil pump gear and an oil return channel will need to be drilled and tapped for an M7 bolt to secure the rear leg of the oil pump. Standard AXW pistons? I would not bother , not if you are going for a replacement for your ABF OEM connecting rods are 2 piece cracked cap , I would sooner invest in forged rods and pistons Got some 1.8T's running around with 450whp on a cast 2.0 crankshaft (they are stroked to 2008cc) . Standard 2.0 FSI N/A crank is same as AZG 2.0 8V so you are fine. No need for a girdle , you are not going to be making the power needed for it. The issue with the ALT / AXW block (or any FSI 4 cylinder block for that matter) is they only come in a 220mm deck height. Volkswagen marine made a lightweight diesel motor with a 236mm deck height aluminum block but finding it has been close to impossible. I have seen images of the Amarok and new van motors with what looks like an Aluminum casted block. If indeed it does end up being an Aluminum block then that is where the 236mm deck height can be sourced from. Why 236mm? Because I wanted to build a modern day ABF without the hassle of having to retrofit an FSI head onto an EA827 block. I am waiting to hear details on the Amarok block. If it turns out to be steel , then I will move forward with the original plan of machining an AXW block and increasing the deck height to 240mm w/ sleeves. That being said this is my build list , you can mimic it closely if you wish. AXW Cylinder head Supertech +1mm oversized intake valves CAT Custom cams + Cat Solid rocker arm conversion INA CNC Ported head w/FSI ports blanked off and runner flaps deleted (welded then machined) AXW Block INA machined 20mm deck height extension 83.5mm bore sleeves BRM 95.5mm stroke crankshaft DMF 160/20mm connecting rods w/ ARP625+ hardware Mahle Motorsport powerpak 95.5mm x 83mm custom pistons w/ 12:1 CR ARP 2000 head studs ARP Main studs - 06F HPR Intake manifold Jenvey 50mm ITB's The only component I am undecided on is the oiling system. I could go either wet sump or dry sump , just boils down to budget when the time comes.
INA, At what cost and which NASP engine, utilising a FSI type head do you have to demonstrate what the net sum of those parts can do? Lots of components in that list will not be necessary IMO to build and engine that will be far more potent that say an older but built tried and tested 1990s ABF unit.
Many thanks for all the replies, much appreciated. Been a slight delay here as I have to finish off putting a mates 2 litre vauxhall XE together before freeing up the engine stand. Turns out what he bought was a headache, not an engine ready to go...bloody GM
has anyone bolted a set of throttle bodies onto a stock engine, regardless of if the pistons work properly??? just to see the output the minimum 25kg weight saving keeps pulling me towards this block
Well you would need a computer as well so all of a sudden there is quite a bit on investment, which means most people would b likely to do it properly I do agree that the pistons shouldn't be THAT much of an issue, so there would be no benefit
There might be a way to make the stock ecu run alpha/n, I'm not a pro in fsi world but without a MAF sensor it should have some fail-safe maps that would run it in this style of mode. So with the right bit of tuning you could probably run on these.... Injectors from an s3 would give plenty of fuel for a non-turbo variant... Fuel rail with the bodies maybe an issue though...
Not sure you would want to bodge the direct injection ECU to run the engine like that. If you could, you would end up with a bodged engine with with a very tame intake cam. If it worked, the time taken down that path would result in 'nominal' ABF unbdoged power and torque... Long and short these engines are not cheap enough yet to justify being a performance street application yet. Can be done (as a PFI) and has been done but will cost a few thousands currently.
