Info wanted please: zerstorer from c&r

Hello all, as a long standing Reader of vw/audi driver magazine, I bought a copy in about 94 I think which contained what must've been one article from a mini series focussing in the work in progress of steve cresswells golf gti 16v 'der zerstorer'. I didn't manage to get my hands on any if the earlier articles about this car from the pages of vw driver, but I did see bits about it in vw motoring I think and then the golf mag, about the time it was kitted out with wolfrace rims and it was given some subtle 90's look updates to the exterior. It has remained my all time favourite mk2 gti, Ive never seen it at a show or been to c&r in person but there something about that car ! . I don't suppose anyone can fill me in with any info about it can they? How the idea for it came about originally? How the work began initially to turn the gti into 'zesty'? If anyone is able to scan any articles in and post them up? I know Steve is active on a vw forum and I may attempt to contact him about this too. I'd love to recreate a car like this one day but I've got a feeling that would cost quite a bit! Like I say, any info, pics etc on this would be if great interest to me, thanks for Reading this post, all the best, harryvr6.

 

Pop zerstorer into the forum search - information will come straight up.

After that, let us know what you need.

 

Ok thanks very much!, all the best harryvr6.

 

Hello again, I was after some magazine features of the zerstorer really, early pics of her and basically any interesting info from when she was being built. Is Steve a member of this fine forum or does he spend his time on the vw Audi forum (ithink it's got a similar name to that!)?
Love that car and thought it was one of the ultimate n/a golfs ever, thank you harryvr6.

 

Hi, I bought an old copy of the golf at inters recently that had it featured in there, it did have an oil problem that Steve had been working on to resolve. I only saw it in vw driver the once and never got to see the subsequent articles. The stand out piece from the vw driver mag feature was that when they were testing the cars acceleration from rest it made the fuse box cover fly off! I don't think Steve will ever sell that car, I also remember blitzkreig I've mk1 they did and much later on I remember the mk3 vr they did (never got to read or see much about that one though), any one got any articles they could post up? Thanks again, harryvr6.

 

I think you're looking through rose tints in all honesty.

This was a company build for PR purposes. The engine spec is not one repeated anywhere often - and so it hasn't stood the test of time. I don't know of another engine using the 99mm / 100 crank, partly because it's over 2-litres, but partly because the diesel crank has kept everyone happy for years.

The body was immaculate, and various company products were applied to it, suspension etc - because it was a marketing tool, albeit an immaculate one (back then).

If you want to see a ground up build to a contemporary interpretation, look no further than PAB's difficult third: http://www.clubgti.com/forum/showthread.php?t=196688

 

Hi chris, I fully understand your last comments, I'm not sure what it is about that car I've just always felt it was a great piece of engineering (old school), and it fascinated me to read how the engine was developed and by it's performance too. I'm not a mechanic and it probably shows! of course these days it's easier to put a mk3 16v in there for a start, like you say you don't hear of people engineering kr's like that! Was it a pr excercise? I'd be interested to know if any one requested c&r to 'make ' them a zesty, as surely the cost wouldve been huge? I always thought Steve just set out to make his dream 16v golf as like he said in the golf mag 'a bit of my soul is in that car' and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't sell it even now. Would you class this car as a sleeper? I've heard it is or was immaculate and when I first stumbled across it it looked standardexcept for the big bumpers! I know I'm probably wearing tints on this one but I would love a drive/ride in it.tuning companies don't do this type of thing anymore, awesome for instance in my opinion lost it when they went to the new premises and it's not the same anymore. You can't beat proper engineering like 'tsr when tim was there for instance, no disrespect to the current crop but tim created the engine packages that I'm referring to. I also loved the thread about the maurice reeves mk1 and also the black mk2. All of these cars just reinforce my admiration for the vw golf. Thanks for Reading harryvr6.

 

Why is my last post not displaying my name as the last person to reply?

 

Software/database glitch. It does it every so often.

Engineered to a point, but really, lots of parts swapping, no different from anyone else. Whatever you saw, I wouldn't say it sat alongside a GTI Engineering or Oettinger conversion, because it wasn't proven by prior or subsequent immitation.

100%. Otherwise it wouldn't have had the suspension on it that they were promoting at the time

Simply not practical. Any show car you ever saw, the company PR tool, is unlikely to be replicated at this level.

Sleeper if you ignore the wheels - they stood out - otherwise quite OEM.

I think you're articulating a change in technology, which has brought about remaps, and left cams in their wake...

The people that do engines like these are fewer, but nobody's lost it. Everything follows commerciality.

 

One thing I noticed while looking through old PVW is the top TSR 16V engines were quoted as 170bhp+ with over 2L, balanced, flowed head, & cams.

We can get 170bhp+ from a standard ABF via use of SEM as proven on the DD dynos of GS & the Inters mobile one.

This backs up what Chris just said, but if a package were available that combined decent engine package plus SEM & a good map then we would be looking at more like 190bhp+

 

Thanks chris! I think you are right: I was going to mention gti engineering because I believe they did some wonderful motors. I suppose it was a pr build as like you say it surely wouldve had a more respectable suspension kit on it! (if it wobbles like a jelly fit a carelley!). And the security system it had must've been one of the most elaborate, promoting that back then though was a good idea.the c&r motor was obviously a one off, I recall vw Audi driver mag claiming it to being the fastest n/a 16v they'd been in and that they requested any challengers to come forward, 'tsr and gti engineering did a different more accesible range of engine upgrades for the masses, zesty ran weber alpha management and was therefore unlike an oem upgrade. The abf route wasn't being done back when zesty was built, that became popular much later on as that engine was brand new in the mk3 back then, so was zesty's engine not impressive? Nowadays if you want a 2L 16v in a mk2 you'd go abf I think?, the times and methods do change like the remapping era we are in now (I've had 8v, 16v, 12v vr6 and currently 1.8t and personally I preferred the 'engine engineering' period! Part of the reason I'm posting this is because I'm unsure if I love my 1.8t enough and keep thinking about a mk2 16v! My mate bought the red amd and stealth tuned 'track car' from andrew at volkswizard last year which is fantastic, a bit of history too as I think geoff Everett (r.i.p) did the setting up on that engine. Like we say the tuners can only work with whatever the current crop of motors are built by vag, if I were to have a 16v built who would I best turn to nowadays? Or would you say stick with the 1.8t? (I've got a revo remap on mine), but still keep thinking Kiss: keep it simple stupid!: 16v!, thanks for the replies and for Reading again, harryvr6.

 

Indeed, BRM quoted 205bhp for their BRM 180 on Weber Alpha mgt. This car was a one-off, and the owner of it is around the forum. Dyno lottery accepted, the numbers bear out an increase over the 180 std quoted output from the BRM 180 conversion:

http://www.clubgti.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1952605&postcount=2

This was the very start of DIY standalone tuning as we know it today. Dave Walker was raving about the idea in CCC in the early 90s, boring out old carbs and using them IIRC, with an 'electronic box' attached !

 

Exactly

I do recall an airbox in it, and should probably just start leafing few pages to refresh my memory on the injection side. Weber Alpha anytime in the '90s was the real start of DIY standalone mgt.

The 99mm / 100mm crank was available, they used it - for capacity and torque no doubt - but as I say, it's thinly replicated.

In terms of VW Audi Car mag saying it was the fastest, I'd imagine it was fairly nippy, but Mark Eliot had a 2.0l at the time of a similar ilk minus the capacity hike from the big crank. That was winning on the strip. Different cars, different reasons. The thing with these built cars is are they ever put to the test, or are they simply immense spec sheets, for all and sundry to ponder over?

The spec of it then was impressive but the spec today is no longer news, and not something I'd replicate. The crank is the one aspect of the engine which has not stood the test of time in the decade and a half since. The car differentiated itself from other cars by having this ultra clean bodyshell and the big crank engine, but you can't take the Zesty minus the crank, and if you do, it's all been done elsewhere.

Everyone mentions oil consumption with this car, and then it transpires it had forged pistons, so QED. Enough is simply not known about the actual consumption!

Nowaways, there are 3 main engine types seen:

- fully-mapped standard 16vs
- fully built race-type engines, of which there are several and there's one in my Mk1
- In the middle lies the standard ABF with headwork and cams, either on K-Jet or standalone

Which of the three engine types mentioned would you want?

It's all very well citing the AmD car there, but intrinscially this is superseded engineering, no developments in years. Today's 'engine engineering' should be just a further iteration of old, accomodating the best of the newer developments available, but it has been passed by owing to the remap business.

This cut the mainstream n/a 16v tuning off, but if you forget the remaps, the challenge today is to build a TSR / BRM / AmD / GTI Engineering engine of old, but with two extra components: high compression pistons, and aftermarket ECU. Nothing else - and see what it gives. And no faffing around with the earlier KR or 9A heads - ABF head, whatever the block, as it is demonstrably better, and follows what was taken to extremes with the BTCC engine: visible combustion chamber re-shaping.

I'm sure you've seen the various debates about tuning the 16v of late, with the schools of thought on what to change as part of a tuning program and when. If it's a Ford Model T you're after, then it has to be a Model T, and you accept the limitations of that. If you want something more modern, there are plenty of options, but they're a damn sight more difficult that a 2 minute remap.

Who to do it? TSR would be a good start point for a discussion to see what they can do for you.

Sounds like a daily driver to me!

 

You mention an airbox - it had a g60 one.

 

Excellent reply thanks, I admire the 16v motors, I don't do the track stuff, I'm just into these cars, i don't think zesty went down the strip at inters at any time, so yes these cars are more than likely created to
profile them in magazines?.
Chris you certainly know your stuff! I'm no mechanic and I'm trying to get my head around the amount of work/ options available to get a good 16v up and running.
Have you got any thoughts on the amd tuned gti I mentioned earlier at all? It has a claimed 180 bhp but is still a 1.8kr I think, I've driven it and it is great (to me anyway), lots of work gone into that one.
Basically I'm thinking about another mk2, (I've had 2 8v's), as I only use my car to go to work and back on my own, and don't use my car at weekends as we use my wifes to take the kids out (spend a fair bit
of time at oulton park spectating), and always wanted a 16v. Even though tuning has moved on I'm afraid the costs of building a good 16v ('tsr for example) hasn't got any cheaper I'm guessing.
Yes you are quite right - my car is a daily driver! And I think I've just lost any credibility that I may of had! Thanks for Reading, all the best harryvr6.

 

I have a distant recollection it was fitted with throttle bodies as a second iteration, and the 'airbox' I was thinking of was a fabricated item on those.

 

All learnt off this forum - stick around!

See Model T comments. I am sure it's a nice period motor, but as long as that is the expectation, then the aspects of it which can be improved do not warrant scrutiny

Building older n/a engines bears no comparison to a 500 remap and %-age power improvements. The remap wins the financial argument every time.

However, it is clear that the theme with a lot of the homebrew conversions on CGTI is to start with something manageable - the 6A/9A/ABF transplant - and take it from there.

Typical iterations are:

- electronic management

or

- cams & head flow work


The next level is to combine all of the above, and then further delve into the head and bottom end and start addressing flow and compression. A lot of members have very enjoyable self-thought, self-developed projects without going the whole hog and comissioning engines.

 

I have an old c&R brochure and it has a pic of the bay from an oblique angle. The engine has ITBs fitted and appears to then have a pipe towards the OS inner wing where an OEM looking plastic airbox is sited. If the G60 has the outlet from the airbox aiming forward and towards the radiator then it souns like it does indeed utilise that airbox.
I could scan a pic next time I have scanner fired up.

 

Chris thank you: danster a scan would be great, cheers harryvr6.

 

Sorry to only find this now, I was searching on Google for something about Bf110 's for an Edward kit I have and noticed this. I must get the old shed out and dust her off one day. The paint is poor now, horrid micro blistering on the roof but otherwise a sound old girl. I have toyed with the idea of refreshing her to sort of say "we still do emm yknow!" but we are still, doing emm without shouting about it, so not found time, too many other projects too such as a Bug and Mk1 GTI. The one thing it desperately needs is updating the engine management by getting rid of the Weber Alpha ECU, adding a cam position , Map and wide band lambda sensor and then a modern ECU, the driveability on the Alpha N setup was always too balls out for me, and it could do with a bigger clutch! I built two replica engines for other people over the years but the result of the car was I sold hundreds of 1900 and 2 litre conversions so it did its job!