Discussion in 'Members Gallery' started by vw_singh, May 5, 2008.
Looking forward to reading this! best of luck at Brands mate
Brands Hatch - Club GTi Trackday tour
Car all ready and packed, I took along the wets just in case the weather fairies decide to wash out the event. Rambow jumped in with me for the day and we met up with Rayhoop in his ED30 and set off anti-clockwise round the m25.
Arriving at Brands, we met with Nige P and unloaded the cars. After the briefing we headed out to get a feel for the track. The circuit was still greasy and damp so I gradually increased the pace while looking for grip. Turbo power seems to suit Brands well and getting power down was problem free. The first couple of sessions were spent on the lowest boost setting of 0.8 bar but as the circuit was quickly drying out, I increased it to a medium setting of 1 bar.
Lunchtime quickly approached so after a quick bite, we took some cars over to the on site weigh bridge and got some figures.
Quite heavy for a mk1 Golf track car.
In the afternoon, I joined the advanced session and decided to have some fun with Nige's mk2 Golf. With so many developments made in discussion with Nige, we thought it would be fun to see how they compare.
Differences in the cars and driving styles meant that we were lapping closely and had a lot of fun through traffic.
Here you can see the car still 3 wheels everywhere, even into Paddock hill. The car actually feels very stable and changes direction very well so it doesn't bother me too much.
I overfilled the oil a little which meant some smoke on over run.
Some cracking photos were taken by various people throughout the day including Rambow, Toyotec and PGDesigns to name a few.
Here is a short video of the afternoon session. Unfortunately the battery ran out just as things were getting interesting.
But here is the same session filmed from Nige's car. You can see me following in the rear view.
Around 10 mins into this session, my car suffered a serious failure. As I passed over the apex of Graham hill bend, I heard a clonk from the drivetrain followed by a bang and my drivers side wheel locking up. I skidded to a halt on the infield and awaited inevitable recovery.
As I got out, it became quite clear what had happened.
A Unimog was used to drag me back to the pits.
Hmmmm, the wheel should not be at that angle.
The car was left at the end of the pitlane but thankfully lots of people came over to help push the car halfway back up the pitlane and back into the garage.
Taking the car apart in the pits and the damage could be seen clearly. The ball joint extenders that I have run for 10 years gave up. Along with the hub failure earlier in the week, I think the extra grip might be taking it's toll on these components....
The tyre was destroyed too.
Thankfully I had a spare ball joint and tyres so I was able to put the car back in a drivable state and get it back home safely. The wing also suffered some minor bending along with some repairable damage to the arch kit. In any respect, I got off lightly. This could have been a very serious incident.
I am very thankful to everyone who helped on the day whether it was mucking in or even just asking. Proper club spirit present on the day.
So I am in the process of rethinking the bearing and hub assembly to make them more robust.
Just happy you weren't hurt mate, if that had let go as you were turning for Paddock hill bend or similar, it could have been nasty.
Do you think if you just replaced the BJE now, it'd last another few years?
Thanks Tristan. It's always a risk with this kind of hobby, especially when modifying parts.
I can just slap some factory ones back in at the expense of poor geometry or raise it but I rather not.
Glad to see you're ok and cars not too badly damaged, shame about the tyre but could have been much worse! This has always been my concern with ball joint extenders of that type, the bending loads are always going to lead to a fatigue failure. To be fair you've given it a lot of abuse though!
Sent from my LG-V500 using Tapatalk
Glad you are OK sSon.
That type of extender is always going to suffer fatigue problems, as mec82 says, .
The reasoning is in this thread. There are better designs shown in the thread.
what are you doing for the extenders next time
bolted and welded ?
Glad to see you're OK - could have been much much worse - especially if that happened on the road on the way home.
Time for something like this?
Same fatigue problem unless you weld them in situ!
The use of a castellated nut is very questionable. How one torques it correctly and line up the holes must be hit and miss!
The thread is not long enough for a part turn method which would give a chance of hole/slot alignment!
Those are weld in only.
Wouldn't it be nice if someone made a hub assembly that has the correct geometry for lowered cars, with the arm for the steering rack sitting an inch lower and the pickup for the wishbone extended an inch.
It would negate the need for extenders and be much safer.
Anyone got the resources and talent to build a few?
I was thinking about this and I don't see an issue with the bolt in type in principal, subject to material specification and design. Seat sport use a similar idea on the early Supacopa racers. That part does have a couple of plates welded to it that pick up on various brackets, but that part is angled so they are needed to keep the extender in it's correct orientation.
I'm no expert on material specification but maybe case hardening, assuming these were hardened post production is some way, might not be the best method for this situation. Maybe a grade of steel with good inherent strength but a degree of resilience to the constant loads being applied might be better.
The main issue, in my opinion, is the type of extender Gurds was using has a narrow width in the body. The wider the body of the extender the less bending motion that is transfered to the transition area between body and the pin. On mine I made the body as wide as I could so the leverage applied (in the event the body was not 100% tight to the hub) was reduced as much as possible. The narrower the body the leverage that could potentially be applied is significantly increased.
In addition when these are fitted you need force applied to the two parts to make sure they are tightly pressed together, otherwise the situation described above means it is only a matter of time till it breaks from the constant bending motion being applied. This cannot happen is the body is wide enough AND the two parts are tightly pressed together.
Maybe the best mod would be to drill and tap the top of the pin so something like an M6 bolt and washed could be fitted to apply force to keep the extender tight to the hub.
I recently crashed mine with enough force to bend the tubular wishbone in half, bend a revolution wheel and twist the chassis but the extender didn't break.
Just my thoughts.
Oh, and glad you ok Gurds. You were lucky there, could have been far more damage than you got away with.
Shine Racing Services in the US made hubs for the mk1
probably very rare
think they out of business now
Just was looking at your first video, you seemed to be just about building pace up.
New turbo power seems pretty effortless around there. Compared to an old NASP video with that red track Porsche, this time it looks as if the car was significantly quicker yet you were much calmer!
Remembering what happened to Marco, you got off real lucky and was quite relieved, you were all safe and the cosmetic damage was pretty minimal.
Look forward to the improvements and solutions coming from this experience
Hi all, sorry for the late response. Thank you for concern and your ideas too.
I've been reading through lots of threads including the one you added Dave and I came to the conclusion that I don't want a bolted in extender. Mine were fitted tight and were periodically inspected to make sure the pinch bolt was torqued up. I am heading towards a push fit and weld design as shown on the SCCH type design like this:
As Dave quite rightly pointed out in another thread, it is important to fit the pinch bolt and torque it first before welding and then the pinch bolt should be kept in place. This is due to the way the hub is designed with a slot.
Also if the thread pitch is fine enough, would the slot and hole not line up while maintaining a correct torque value? Like the rear hub nuts?
This is not the only issue I face as the hub flange also sheared and is a common problem too. Again Dave has shown the the Audi parts cane be used with a better CV clamp design but due to the accessibility of parts, I would rather bore the mk1 housing to take a late mk2/mk3 bearing of larger dimensions and possibly use either mk2 or vr6 hubs and CVs for strength.
Any experiences and ideas welcome. Also if anyone knows anyone to get these parts made from or work done by would be appreciated.
There is also the possibility of using a late mk2 upright as it'll already take the larger bearing and has the bonus of having a larger offset from the hub face to the strut. Like this:
Picture from http://www.hillclimbfans.com/news/schraubernews-3-2016/
This would require new caliper brackets and the section of the upright that fits into the shock would need machining and re-drilling. Still worth considering though.
The triangulation from the Balljoint extender to the steering arm appeals
I have designed my own similar to the scch ones and had sets produced.
The ones I have designed I have used to increase my track width and also provide some additional fixed positive caster.
If you're interested let me know and I'll get some details up [emoji57]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Brilliant! Yep, I'm all ears at the mo and am happy to see what people can offer. Please share.
I'd love to see them too Tim.
Separate names with a comma.