My Tim Stiles built 2 Litre MK2 16v returns.

Ian ... http://www.specialistvehicleprepara...s-for-sale/porsche-cayman-race-prepped-shell/

Almost ready to be a GT4 beater

 

I can barely keep with IT and phones let alone modern fuelling set up's for my old timer!

I just leave it simple for those in the know to set it up 'occasionally' then just go and play.

Remarkably it's not been near a RR in years so a visit to Vince is years overdue (although probably not needed if truth be known)

 

I can barely keep with IT and phones let alone modern fuelling set up's for my old timer!

I just leave it simple for those in the know to set it up 'occasionally' then just go and play.

Remarkably it's not been near a RR in years so a visit to Vince is years overdue (although probably not needed if truth be known)

 

Nice!
Don't think Mrs B would say so though.....she's a big softy!

 

Rollcage padding then lol

If you look in the sales section, you may recognize the last green car ...

 

Vince has a new dyno know, so I would expect the reading @WOT to be different and not comparable to the Sun Ram 12 thing he used before.
I would say electronic control needs no set up is very repeatable, creates a wider window of operation and torque response, plus is even simpler when configured and oh I am more old school than you lol

 

Tell me more.....

Is this a kit of some description?

I can remember Bill's old TB's used a standalone system


I this a cheap set up and who supplies and fits?

I can remember Kstar 1-3 Geoff @ AmD....is this totally different?

 

Bill's old Jetta had no choice but to use an old SEM and the Kstar system that the late Geoff used to calibrate were all very early stages of SEM use, which at the time where very expensive to the average Golf owner.
With systems from the likes of DTA - a company owned by our very own sparrow, Emerald, OMEX and so on, you can quite easily convert that engine from K-Jet to SEM and unleash best torque anywhere, i.e at part load, WOT, during a transient and so on, once the net sum of the hardware is there to support it.
It does not mean ITB component fitment is mandatory but, if you chose that path, they will help in freeing up the upper engine VEs and extend the torque at higher rpms.
However the SEM can run the engine as it is, with the addition of a few sensors , a fuel rail and matched injectors. There is a real performance delta hiding in the engine, that will then truly set it apart from a stock but tuned SEM motor. Plus you will be able to drive it as any modern car as driveablity will be enhanced as well.

Remember that WOT plot where the car was tested at 170bhp when jamesa had it?



If an SEM was fitted to that car the above would have been significantly different and always repeatable.

I will throw a spanner in the works. A SEM would then set the properly built engine apart from a stock engine but tuned via an SEM like this one...



That is a stock 150ish bhp motor, just lots of calibration development time on road and dyno (because I can) that I use daily and on track no issues.
Imagine your engine at a base 170bhp ( in a poor state no doubt) with the ability to optimise everywhere, then it would be a 190bhp motor w/o ITBs?

SEM systems cost 900 to 500 for the brands mentioned above.
Some of us here have skills to fit and build the loom that would be required but, for those without such skill means shelling out to a professional to get it fitted. Admitted this does cost.
And then the mapping to get it to control the engine.

The latter is what puts off those who have doubts. The benefits though are well worth it.
I used to tune cars with points and condensers, and carbs. They work too but no where near as repeatable as electronic controls.

 

I wonder what TB's and this system would produce on my car?

I suspect quite a good result?

For now I will take a trip to Vince and see hows she is doing.

From what you say it could end up being a 2-3k investment taking into account the time for fitment set up purchase of the SEM and TB's....(at a rough guess)

Much as I love the car and what it does I feel the cost maybe just a little too much on what I am willing to pay especially and what I am considering to purchase down the line.

 

Maybe in similar circumstances at Jap performance I would say 200+bhp@7200rpm and 160lbft@5600-6000rpm with response everywhere on ITBs. or ~ 185+bhp@6800rpm and 163lbft@5000-5700rpm on the plenum set up. Still way more powerful than a tuned stock motor. The main thing would be the increased the part load response anywhere below those maximum numbers.

There are the trusted and proven DTH Jenvey units, that Bill helped to develop as well as new offerings from Omex.
ITBs are new from around 700quid for a set.

 

Eddie,

What do you mean by in a poor state no doubt please ?

Incorrect set up or not optimised or other ?

As far as I could tell at the time the engine was running well, being regularly checked on VAG garage equipment. Does the AFR produced during the run not support this ... not sure if you have the AFR from back when I posted the output numbers ?

The prior RR numbers were 200bhp / 160lbft at Stealth with these being 170 / 150 ... is there a simple relevance to be drawn from the closer torque numbers over the BHP figures ?

 

Because I would expect and engine of that ilk on such rollers to demonstrate a much better result even on K Jet.
Yes you posted about that >>here<<.
I do remember commenting about the pretty rich mixture in the mid range before the torque rise to 150lbft. NASP motors tend to run best at 13.2-12.8 AFR. On that day CFJ dipped to 11.8!



Proves that KJet is not as repeatable an does need some attention every now and again to be optimum.

Stealth old Sun Ram's numbers are empirical to Stealth. People have tested stock ABF motors there at the time at 178bhp and chipped ones with 188bhp!
I even had a car (Stock ABF) I had road tuned on K-jet test 186bhp there! So with such a baseline it is quite easy for cars like Ian's, that had work done to it to measure at 200bhp, as did BarnyH and trackcab16v's Jetta, Hotgolf's 2.1 monster with 188lbft and so on.
It is very difficult to correlate that to somewhere else, except you would expect the 'built' engines to higher numbers than the stockers.

The test at Jap performance was the first test result posted in public that gave an insight what CFJ would measure on a modern rolls. It just so happens that I also had access to the the same machine and have seen the same behavior from similar engines.
Make no mistake, even at 170bhp and a maximum torque 150lbft@6000rpm on a rolls like that, a MK2 with a short 425 FDR will still feel well alive is my experience.

 

is it worth the extra expense to go throttle bodies for bhp gained ? if its going to be a trackday car be cheaper to go carbs,you only have to look at the gvk thread to see there not the be all and end all.

 

OK Eddie, thank you.

Understood ... good to clarify again whilst in context and is one of the reasons why the Mk1 now has ITB`s lol

Hopefully I haven`t cost Ian too much lol

 

*Edit* - No where I suggested ITBs. That would be desire of the owner.
I am only pointing out the benefits of an accessible engine management system and gave an estimation of peak numbers on an SEM/EMS with and without ITBS, using K-Jet test at Japerformance as a baseline.

Throttles by themselves without control are useless. In fact a regular plenum 16v engine without a good ECU calibration is as good as a Briggs and Stratton lawn mower engine.

Carbs are mechanical devices like breaker points that require maintenance to flow a fuel mix optimally in a narrow window - you still need to control the ignition properly que Electronics!

The calibration that can be delivered via a fuel and spark engine controller gives you throttle response ( single or multi) and the ability to achieve optimum torque at any condition up to WOT rather than just WOT alone. Aftermarket dyno plots generally only display WOT performance.
With an engine ECU, you can calibrate some engines to even have too much torque at certain speed load conditions, which makes for an unpleasant drive.
If an ECU is fitted and calibrated, then it is the engine hardware that would limit or dictate where and how that torque, as a function of cylinder pressure is developed.

I believe the car above and well as others such a trackcab16v etc would benefit first from some kind of electronic engine control and then optionally other hardware such as ITBs and so on.
If it works on stock engines, then it will only make a modified engine better.

I am very familiar with Gary's thread, which does not focus on the part load throttle response and driveabilty response aspects I described above. I am also sure if Gary had to to this again he is now wise to the whole engine ECU benefits.

It is not my car though...I am only pointing out the benefits.

 

When you put up pictures of 'GEL' undergoing an ITB conversion I was like

 

Haa lol ... shocked that I both maybe listened and sort of understood

I just need to remember it all now

 

EMS + ITBs from K-jet? You would wonder what took you so long!

Only Ian to convert now lol

 

great explanation and write up eddie ,

despite rollin road figures , ian,s pace on track is awesome , I think that's where it should be compared .

 

Thanks Eddie.

Vince maps DTA, he's one of my longest standing dealers!
Ask Jon what he's busy building, which will be running an S80 soon.

You would need the baby DTA ECU, an S40, and Jenvey do direct fitment ITBs which I sell. See here for the kit. I can also provide the loom made in house. I will have a couple of used S40s for sale in a week or two.
I will have a ClubGTi discount in the near future, only for paid members who have been around for a while,

Me too! lol