R32 running Emerald ECU, good and bad points, what's your experience?

Discussion in 'VR5, VR6 & Wx' started by daljsd, Aug 30, 2012.

  1. daljsd Forum Member

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    What is your experience with a MK4 R32 engine running on Emerald in a mk2 Golf/corrado?

    good and bad points?
     
  2. oburT6RV Forum Member

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    Depends what refinements you are willing to compromise on, or lose altogether.

    I ran my MK5 R32 conversion on DTA. An S80 engine ECU and their DBW STC module. I used all the factory sensors and DBW throttle ( except the MAF as it's not supported). I set it up to run full VVT (continuously variable as per stock), sequential, intake switch over, stock coils, the lot. It drove really, really nice but I'll be honest, nothing and I mean NOTHING comes close to the factory ME7 ECU.

    Lose the MAF and a cam sensor, it still runs. It will even run without a crank sensor providing it can see one of the cams.

    On a standalone, no chance. You're stranded waiting for the AA.

    As good as the DTA was, it wasn't as consistent and repeatable as ME7. ME7's idle and lambda control is second to none. It has to be. Such 'luxuries' play second fiddle to standalone makers.

    I know the Emerald K3 is nothing like as feature rich as the DTA and it doesn't have DBW either, so you'll have to convert to a cable throttle.

    Having said all that, if you just want it to run, make the hp numbers and aren't fussed about idle quality, economy and cold starting on a -10 deg morning, the Emerald will work OK.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2012
  3. Joesoap Forum Member

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    I run Emerald on my golf 20v and its 100% starts no problems what ever the weather, great economy, idles sweet as and makes the power
    been doing the job this last 5 years :thumbup:
     
  4. oburT6RV Forum Member

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    I don't doubt that. My DTA ran my VR6 Turbo perfectly for 5 years too, but the R32 is an entirely different kettle of fish to both the 20V and the VR6 [:D]
     
  5. goblinracing10 Forum Member

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    I use to run my R32 engined Beetle RSI race car on emerald.

    If i'm honest i don't think the emerald is that capable of runninf r32 engine as it seems to struggle to keep up if you really want to push the mapping to its limits and as already posted it doesn't support drive by wire.

    We had to convert the standard r32 throttle body to use a cable and this took some doing but it is possible.

    I have switched to KMS and instantly I got another 20bhp at the top end as it was cleaner to map.
     
  6. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    In what aspects is the later 24v motor it different from the 12v (from an engine controls perspective), you mean the addition of VVT and the variable inlet tract?

    Neither does KMS or certain DTA PCMs really, in the true sense of why later engines have motorzied throttles (torque structure strategy).

    Are we talking about using the Emerald system as the default "alpha N" and using the KMS on a speed density algorithm? If that is the case then there I can understand the comments.
    But that is not a limitation of the Emerald controller though.
     
  7. oburT6RV Forum Member

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    Mainly the twin VVT (and therefore twin cam sensors), twin wideband & DBW. The intake is a simple on / off control, which any ECU can control.

    If one wants to run an R32 / 2.8 BDE engine with an aftermarket ECU, as VW intended *, then the ability to control those functions effectively is key and it also limits one's choice of ECUs. Certainly in the >1500 price bracket, I'm not aware of many ECUs that have all that. Motec can do it, sure, but you pay handsomely for the privilige. Then you pay again to 'unlock' certain features, such as DBW. Then you have to pay yet again for the relevant pin out diagram and control frequencies.

    As already mentioned, DBW isn't critical and neither is twin lambda, but personally I like to ensure both banks run lambda 1. I also wanted to retain the DBW for a factory feel. One benefit of a 3rd party DBW controller is you can use any pedal and throttle combination, even non VAG parts. However, aftermarket controllers don't perform 'pre-flight' checks to correlate the pedal and throttle pots, so some manual readjustment is required periodically to remove the pot drift.

    The main issue with the VVT is there is very little control information out there. After some experimenting, I found some nice settings. 80hz control freq, 63% base PWM, P-550, I-50 - D-0 and a control loop delay of 0.01 seconds.
    The cam angle hit the target just as quicky as ME7.1.1, but only when the oil was hot. When cold, the adjustment was slow and drifted way off target. ME7 can hit the target every time regardless of oil temp / viscosity. I'd love to know what control strategy they use :)

    * - Yes I realise VW use torque demand mapping, based on throttle demand, steering angle and road speed, but with a standalone, thankfully all that nonsense goes out the window and you just get what you ask for.

    VW request lambda 1 across the entire map, except from 5500rpm upwards past 50% load, where it drops progressively to 0.85 by 6800rpm. So with a standalone, you can get more mpg out of an R32. I was able to cruise at 80mph at lambda 1.15 with no detonation. I was seeing over 36mpg from it with an incompleted map. I'm certain I could have extracted 38-40 by running it on the ragged edge of leanness and driving like a granny on the motorway, but I lost interest and switched to ME7. The 24V can handle running lean for extended periods. The 12V cannot. 15.5 AFR was the leanest I could cruise at, but the EGTs were getting too hot, so fattened it back to 14.7.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2012
  8. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    VW as with any production OEM, has various constraints placed on what the powertrain must deliver from the legal homologated power and torque (auto and steady state), emission and monitoring limitations, FE, durability, NVH, brand DNA and customer expectations. The calibration should also match the std deviation of the vehicle fleet and have no concerns during end of line and COP.
    Also as you can imagine this is not a one man, one location, one condition, 2 hour, one car job!
    This is why the control system is complex and is calibrated a certain way.
    Life racing, Petcel, Motec ECUs can do this yes and the former is not that bad for cost.

    In the 12v motors with M3.8.1(EU) or M5.9.1(USD OBD2) throttle cable systems, there is the same requirement and feature content for both banks just more crude. Pedal signal, Throttle monitoring, as well as forms of 'key on engine off' checks are a std requirement on on EOBD systems (e.g. ME7.X, Conti, Denso etc). MK4 12v cars have ME7 controls as well, with an improved version of bank specific enrichment compensation, as seen on the Euro 24v engines, when compared to the previous M3.8/5.9 systems.

    Because this field is beyond that of the eager technician/enthusiast. In industry there are specialists devoted the engine cam control and diagnosis. The method and infomation surrounding specifics of control is mostly "secret".

    I agree the OEM PCM does have oil temp as an input either real or modelled and can compensate controls when the oil is more viscous (cold start). When the oil gets thin, the VVT system is hard to move due low pressure and worse at low speed loads. In such a case even the OEM system will shut down VVT.

    There is logic in the strategy that determines if the engine will run at stoich or bypass to full load lambda, based on load, pedal and engine speed, cat purge on decel, or if to further enrich, based on the exhaust model, to protect the catalyst and exhaust components.
    Enleaning mixture towards misfire actually degrades FE, as you have to increase load and MAF, only to increase injected flow. You want MBT timing at light loads (due to slow burn) and on LBT for best FE. You have to look at mapping some internal EGR at light loads (with cam timing), reducing parasitic/pumping losses and removing some of the torque reserves etc to improve FE and reduce fuel flow for a given torque. When mapping engines with SEMs in the light loads and mid rpms, you should aim for stoich or just about.

    Just because OE systems are complex does not mean it will be good for an enthusiast who has different and less restricted requirements.
    I know first hand about the effort that goes into producing a production cal and it is a massive compromise to what we would want.

    A good aftermarket controller, that can run timed injection and a speed density algorithm, should have no problem in delivering a great time to torque engine response as well as excellent part load performance and economy in a STD NASP 3189cc motor.
    You just have to understand the engine from a combustion perspective before populating tables.

    As I say "its all in the mapping" [:D]

    If you have any questions feel free to ask me on pm if something that I said was not clear...I do not bite lol
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2012
    G60Dub likes this.
  9. oburT6RV Forum Member

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    Thanks for the extra info, very useful to know!

    So the oil sensor in the sump that is part of the 'sensor' harness in ME7, does that feed oil temp information to the ECU? It would be good to compare the temp in VCDS (if it's measured) to my MFA reading as it seems very low. It's a 12V oil sender Teed off the pressure switch. After 20 mins or so, it's only showing around 70 degs, which can't be right!
     
  10. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    The oil level and temp sensor (G266) sends infomation to the cluster and the oil temp infomation from the cluster is sent to the PCM via CAN.
     
  11. goblinracing10 Forum Member

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    To be honest I have no idea when it comes to the physical control and mapping of the engine. I was just informed that Emerald struggles to keep up with the speed of the signals to and from the r32 engine.

    I know when KMS without dbw was installed I was able to get more power.
     
  12. taks CGTI Committee Paid Member

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    So what about converted cars? How do I get around this to get the vvt to work properly and consistently?
    Mk2, vr6 clocks, mk4 r32 ecu....
     
  13. 1990

    1990 Paid Member Paid Member

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    Are you a sensor or wire short Taks?
     
  14. taks CGTI Committee Paid Member

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    No I was just thinking if my clocks have the oil temp and pressure feeds- what info regarding the oil will the ecu see?

    It's not like as described that our converted car with vr6 clocks will "CAN" the info back to the ecu....

    Need to put it back on the road- fire up an old laptop with some vcds action and do some logging....
     
  15. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    This only works on later MK4 style clocks.
     
  16. taks CGTI Committee Paid Member

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    So the ecu in converted cars running without the mk4 clocks are not getting the oil info thus not doing the vvt business correctly?


    ps. what you doing up so late / or early [8(]
     
  17. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    In an Emerald ECU the VVT is controlled via a PWM signal directly to the cam solenoids.
    In the ME7 application the oil temp is modelled and referenced from the cluster reading.
     
  18. taks CGTI Committee Paid Member

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    Apart from the installation of some mk4 clocks- any other suggestions to get this working correctly...
     
  19. Sean_Jaymo Forum Member

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    On my 24v conversion, the ecu can see an oil temp when interrogated with VCDS, there is no wiring from the cluster to the ecu so I can only assume that the sump sensor is providing a reading here.
     
  20. mat-mk3

    mat-mk3 Administrator Admin

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    I think the sump sensor is just a level sensor and not a temp one. The oil temp sensor is on top of the oil filter housing with the pressure sensor also.
     

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