Redrilling wheels - has this guy found the limit?

Funny you should say that.

I always used 10 m/s>2 in calcs., so that I could just plow them out quickly, long-hand. I really had a lot of aggro. from consultants checking my calcs., who always found an 11.9% error!

Silly bu99ers never allowed for the fact that it was all guess-work anyway.

Factors of Safety = Factors of Ignorance!

ps. Has we hyjacked this thread?

 

Someone has only gone and un-hyjacked the thread.

The reading may well get interesting again!

 

No Hijack daved. You never answered the left hand thread question.
If the nuts are so tight there is zero movement affecting them, then why the different thread orientation?

Length of studs or bolts clamping the wheel onto the drive flange will have an affect too. Your group A modified drive flange had an extended spigot support welded on to it. Was this not done for a similar reason?

 

Feck Danny. I've had six beers tonight. I had not read so deeply into your post!

Yes, I do understand the use of long studs. But you did not quote torque and turn.

Also. I do not understand 'for done for'. Is this Scotch?

Hijack. There's a good speeling!

 

That is just a grammar / spelling error Daved, nothing to worry about.

Left hand threads though, this is the question.

 

You can't quote wikipedia, Chris Eyre the engineer might call you up on it and say it's not a reliable source and can be changed by anyone.

 

This would be a difference between hub-centred and stud-centred wheels? Pretty much all the old trucks and buses I've worked on ('60s&'70s) had stud-centred wheels, and left-hand thread on the passenger side wheel studs. 'crack to the back' was what I was told.

 

Listen & learn, Gents!

Wiki theory doesn't match reality, and wheels will sit off-centre, as per the diagram I have posted, and that's from experience, experience which was conveyed in point 2), which you've cut off in your reply.

Point 2 is a wheel rotating off centre at increasing speed, with potentially disasterous consequences.

To add even more weight, what's even more worrying is a few years ago I was round at Kwik Fit, G60 steels fitted with ~ 20mm of non-centric spacer. When the wheels were put back on the car, these guys noticed that the wheel wouldn't sit straight, even on tapered bolts, and they actually adjusted the wheel positioning before finally nipping them up, by eye, on the unused centre bore.

So these guys were playing the part of the human spigot ring / centre bore, lining them up by eye, because no physical device was present to do it automatically

The spacers were binned shortly after.

So by a process of derivation, you've now collectively positioned yourselves at sub-Kwik Fit IQ levels - which I'm sure you'll agree is never good

 

Obviously Chris, everyone knows that:

Que Music, You can't get better than a KwikFit fitter.

 

I personally feel it is easier to use spigot rings, but with tapered wheel bolts done up lightly by hand first and then a correct tightening process used the wheels will sit happily central on the hub. The kwik fit boys who obvioussly just throw wheels on to most cars don't normally have to worry about this process, but when they do have to it takes them a little longer to figure it out.

But obvoussly in reality whover bolted on the reeves wheel was a monkey and meant it was off centre. Even the kwik fit boys have an iq high enough to know that when you don't have a centrebore to align the wheel you need to do the bolts up properly so that it centres on them.

Experience also tells us these wheels have been used and in reality they have not broken,,, hmm strange.

 

If the wheel won't centre on the bolt tapers, then you should bin it, cos the bolts won't be sitting in the seats in the wheel correctly.

Also, you totally missed that Wiki was for referencing the bolting, the bolted wheel joint is designed such that none of the parts move, as such the spigot is irrelevant unless the wheel bolt clamping forces are overcome.

Anyway, may aswell kill this thread, its not debating the original post anymore, as you seem to have taken it down the route of off centre wheels. . .

 

That echo what I was thinking whilst reading through the posts but Ive had a wheel loosen off when spigots were not used however I think that was just a one off.

 

Take a wheel, a wheel gun, and put a wheel on a car at a cocked angle. Preferably an alloy wheel, which has a lot of metal around the bolt hole. As you wind on the wheel, notice how you can tighten the one nut/bolt so that the wheel gun socket isn't centred in the alloy wheel hole. See the earlier diag

Regards your insults towards the Reeves, PM me for contact details and you can convey your exact thoughts to them personally

 

See diag, posted yesterday above.

No need. Pop the glasses on, re-read and you'll see that the thread had the highly relevant spigots point raised quite early on, page 1

 

Thats an incorrect way to do it, you've got to torque them up in stages in sequence, if you do it like you describe then there is a chance you'll get it wrong. You can use your example as a reason to say why a spigot is preferable, but it does not prove that a spigot is essential.


Can't see your diagram at work, however i doubt it could show anything relating to the bolting statement. The only way the spigot sees a load is if the clamping force is over come. Until that happens, it is doing absolutely nothing other than, previously mentioned, providing a way to support the wheel and centre it during wheel bolt installation, useful, but not essential.


Just to state the absolute obvious here, there are two fundamentals when fitting wheels
1 - The wheel bolts must be tight enought to provide sufficient clamping force
2 - The wheel is centred.

If either of those are not met then there is a chance of a problem.

 

Oh, and if you're only going to use experience as an argument, then in my experience i ran a MK2 with no spigot rings int he alloys for a number of years and had absolutely no problems with vibration or wheels falling off.

So by your theory i am right

 

Progressing the spigot point, m1keh has asked me to point out how the Reeves addressed the issue on their car. They did what the works cars had and created a hub flange insert which extended the centrebore, akin to this works item here:



That's a Mk2 Group A hub.

It is very common to see extended hubs in motorsport, with the main exception being Group 4 Escorts which have a very thick wheel stud base, which is a snug fit on on the steel wheel inserts, and provides almost a dowelling effect.

 

Extended flanges allowing for FASTER centreing and fitting of the wheel in motorsport use with spacers also fitted, speed also added by the use of wheel guns for tightening fastenings, these could not be used when there is not a spigot for the wheel to engage into. When there is no fitted spigot to use then a proper tightening sequence with tapered nuts is needed to ensure the wheel is central with the hub. Neither of these are points raised to the original question of whether these wheels are safe to use or not, as spigot rings or similar can be machined to ensure centrality of the wheel when it is fitted.

 

I have had a wheel come off while on track (wheel hanging off, think it was just the one bolt left in the hub - the rest of the bolts were rolling down the hill)

It was on a mk2 fitted with spacers to clear brakes - no lip on the spacer so wheel could not be centered properly. The same effect of not running with a spigot ring.

All bolts were torqued using torque wrench in seqence, and at stages in order to try and centre the wheel as much as possible through the angled seats on wheel recess / bolt shoulder.

5 laps later with the heat from brakes and the bolts fell out.

 

Studs allow for faster wheel fitting, not flanges.