Toyotec's 2.0 16v MK2 dyno comparison. ABF (Digi vs Kjet vs MS) vs 9A MS. P3 14-11-10

Discussion in '16-valve' started by Toyotec, Oct 6, 2010.

  1. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    I did not prepare this thread to compare to vw_singh's car per se. If I did, the cars would not be MK2 vehicles but MK1 cars with the various engine variants. The object here is to compare the sweeps for 4 typical engines fitted to your average MK2 or even Mk1 as introduced in the how to ABF thread. The baseline is the MK2 vehicle that has a factory engine, working in good mechanical order. This was compared to a MK3 16v, also with a factory ECU and calibration and was shown to have similar results both what was displayed on this thread and other data that was not shared albeit at different times. Satisfied that factory cal is working as intended I would expect other variants, in the MK2 cars to deviate +/- .It would be unfair to compare Gurd's developed car with these MK2 vehicles that have had calibration work done for the SEM but no dyno development time and do not share the same weight and gearing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2010
  2. badger5 Club GTI Sponsor and Supporter Trader

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    Can you choose scales on the DD plots? (I know I cant on Dastek)
     
  3. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    Yes.
     
  4. Mike_H Forum Addict

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    A 9A with ABF cams is a mix and match engine, so maybe the head and cam combination isn't ideal. If the 9A is not a late one with the 373d type head, it'll have the 28mm exh valve / 27mm seat combination from a KR, and the earlier combustion chamber design, so I'm not surprised it makes a bit less here. Every engine is different though.

    In general, on the rolling road tests I've seen or read about, ABFs tend to make a little bit more power than 9A / 6A lumps (with KR or ABF cams), whether on Kjet, standalone, or remapped factory management. While there might be room for improvement on this one by more calibration work, I'm not surprised that it's below the ABF on MS.
     
  5. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    I know, the use of ABF "101" and"102" cams in a KR/9A have been mentioned on here and I did try on road to get that car to be as edgy as the ABF but, dyno development aside it was not possible.
    The graph just comfirms the effort that was made when compared to the same effort on the ABF engine'd car with the same type of standalone. I expect the torque to improve with dyno time for both vehicles, but regarding the 9A engine not in the same steps as the ABF unit. Peharps only slighty better than the current torque shape for the ABF on Digifant 3.x.
     
  6. Brookster

    Brookster Paid Member Paid Member

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    i will try and find the plots for my Old Engine ABF Bottom End & KR Head / Cams 42mm inlet k-jet 169bhp @ 6200rpm & 150lb/ft @ 3000rpm
     
  7. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    Yes but this is irrelevant to this thread and what was done, unless your engine was tested on the same day on an engine dyno with all the other engines mentioned in this thread. Someone would also need to be on site to ensure there were strict controls to both the level of engine hardware and test procedure, to ensure consistency in the results.
     
  8. Brookster

    Brookster Paid Member Paid Member

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    i know and i don't want to start a dyno lottery thread again. :thumbup:
     
  9. mk1life New Member

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    in south africa,an abf would make a gauranteed 120kw-125kw (flywheel) on simple aftermarket management system .Proven.
    put into perspective,a more modern alfa romeo twinspark 2litre 16valve is 110kw engine,using bosch motronic (alfa romeo 145/156/147 etc)
    a nissan sr20 2litre 16v ( nissan sentra sti south african version) is a 103kw-108kw
    engine depending on year model.
    my point is that the ABF is a wonderfull engine and we love it to bits in sa.it responds very well to mods aswell.
     
  10. paultownsend Forum Member

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    please delete if not relevant to this thread.

    i have just had my abf digi on a D_D machine. it is not the same machine as before as they have upgraded to the 4wd version. it s a serious bit of kit.

    the car is a std seat abf unit with a toledo gutted airbox, k&n panel. block breather routed to catch tank, abf oe manilfold, mk2 8v downpipe mated to a jetex 2" system. just fully serviced

    the only mechanical differene is the head has been fully re-built with ex guides and seals. all vw. seats and valves re cut and ground. multi angle.

    before (10 months, 10k ago)
    149.5hp@6k
    139lbft@4.2k

    after
    151.6hp@6k
    146.5lbft@4.2k

    increase
    2.1hp
    7.5lbft

    i can send graphs to tell the real story. but il have to ask to get them re-sized as they used slightly different increments
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2010
  11. Ben S

    Ben S Forum Junkie

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    Paul, the figures seem close to Davs digi mk2, but for comparison you really need the ambient pressure, air intake temp (and it's measuring point), tyre pressures all to be similar
     
  12. LregG

    LregG Paid Member Paid Member

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    in regards to using 8v exhaust systems, pre big bumper 8v systems do not reduce size over the rear axle unlike big bumper exhaust systems. Do you know what systems are on the cars as this might be an influence?
     
  13. badger5 Club GTI Sponsor and Supporter Trader

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    so can your plots be scaled on print to expand the torque plots?
     
  14. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    Please view expanded answers to your specific questions on this thread and discuss there if you wish.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2010
  15. md20vt Forum Member

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    9a seems very low on power are these figures atw ? My 9a from 04 produced 177 bhp atf @5.4 and 165.4lbft @ 5k. did a abf in 05 produced 163 atw and 147 lbft both had cams and head work but the difference shouldn't be that vast compared to your results ? I will post up the graphs if I can find them.
     
  16. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    This is a comparison thread done on the same day back to back on the same dyno tested twice. So addtional plots done on whatever rollers at different dates and ambients, with whatever procedure, would not help in this discussion unless you were to test with one of the vehicles (possibly digifant 3.x) and walk backwards to the original result. The results at WOT does correlate to my driving experience of all the vehicles test here. So the deltas in results are valid.
    Mind, your 177bhp@5.4K does not help the torque "peak" of 165.4lbft@5k. This is due to the engine producing 172.14lbft at this point. So either you copied that wrong or your dyno tester made a serious mistake!
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2010
  17. tobyk

    tobyk Forum Member

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    This is good info here. Having driven KJET and EFI ABFs I have been pretty underwhelmed by the EFI, I like to give my cars a good hiding every now and again and the way the electronic ABFs pull at the top end is just boring, even if the figures don't suggest a huge difference KJET just works so much better at the top end, the throttle response means even a tiny sidestep onto the throttle is enough for a rev match on a downshift, whereas in the standard management car I needed to stamp the throttle before even touching the clutch for a smooth fast downshift!

    If a megasquirt equipped ABF can offer the same high end response then I could be converted to running EFI...

    Look forward to the KJET car getting on the rollers for a decent comparison.
     
  18. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    I am in talks with the owner of the KJet car as well as the Digifant one. Those are the most popular conversions so it would be nice to see the deltas between the two. I think the same as you, but for now it is just a thought. Time will tell soon.

    Do not under estimate the ABF on Digifant 3.X though. It can be just as good in execution as MS if mapped sensibly.
     
  19. 3hirty8ight Forum Member

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    I am happy to donate my race car for a graph if needs be.. Although only a 1.8 KR.. Throttle response in the K-jet was always remarked as having superior throttle response (To what was around at the time).

    Modern EFI (Non OE and a lot of new OE) can be made to replicate whatever charectoristics you require. And is far suprior in every aspect.

    K-jet is very crude, although perfectly tune-able with the right knowledge, and a LOT of time. Ignition curve on the std. cars being the limiting factor of tunability.
     
  20. md20vt Forum Member

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    I understand the comparison, I also unerstand the conditions. What I'm trying to figure out is why the 9a is running low on power, my query had nothing to do with the comparison. You have done a great job putting this together the information is much appreciated.

    You were correct, I did not copy the data down correctly according to the print out my 9a produced 164.7ftlbs @5418 rpm 176.7bhp @5673 rpm

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     

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