vw spiess f3 engine in Ireland

Discussion in '8-valve' started by Brian.G, Nov 29, 2010.

  1. Brian.G

    Brian.G Forum Member

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    Why wouldnt they just have used a 1.8? Wait.....the 1.6 has smaller journal diameters has it not? Im a bit lost on the small engine codes I will admit.
     
  2. Brian.G

    Brian.G Forum Member

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    He said he'd think about it. It is a ''cool'' head, big valves, solid lifters etc....camshaft... hard to know. I dont know what its worth? 500euro? 450? ........ new valves needed too.....costs?...how are shims/lifters after contact..questions questions...
     
  3. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    Yes, EG has smaller big ends, less space in the crankcase for the crank/rod assy to turn, 136mm rods, + single head oil drain mentioned by the man from Scotlandshire ^^.
     
  4. Brian.G

    Brian.G Forum Member

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    so less journal drag and surface speed, hmmm
     
  5. danster Forum Addict

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    The early 1.6 engines (1588cc) do use smaller diameter crank pins than the later 1595cc and 1781cc DX engines. 80mm stroke and 79.5mm bore on the 1588ccc engine. 81mm bore and 77.4mm stroke on the later 1595cc one.
    But if the crank is bespoke who knows. [:s]
     
  6. Mike_H Forum Addict

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    Budget 15-20 per valve, and the same for lifters. it really needs stripped down and inspected to know how much damage there is. Risky business with something like that. Could be bespoke parts that are hard to replace. You might replace all the valvegear because one set is damaged.
     
  7. Brian.G

    Brian.G Forum Member

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    True Mike. I hope he calls back/emails soon even so, just to make my mind up solid. He'll prob want 1k or something daft for it. Def not going to happen. Which has me wondering, what should I go max........[:s] Ill play thick sure and see:thumbup::lol:
     
  8. HPR

    HPR Administrator Admin

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    valves off the shelf @ G&S
    40mm diameter lifters thats something different
    also no space in the head to go bigger if damaged
     
  9. Brian.G

    Brian.G Forum Member

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    Sleeving would be considered ridiculous I guess then[:$]
     
  10. HPR

    HPR Administrator Admin

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    spiess use a 14.9 mm lift/ short duration cam
    with something more normal you could go to 37 mm or so

    On engines like this, are so much nice goodies, clever engineered... many little tweaks ,
    here you can learn to make power , its all in the details, if you get the chance...BUY
     
  11. danster Forum Addict

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    Are not a lot of the details designed about the intake restrictors the F3 engines run?
    This makes them a fair bit different from conventional methods of tuning. EG. Artificially high static compression ratios due the the restrictor limiting cylinder filling.
     
  12. HPR

    HPR Administrator Admin

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    Yes its a restrictor engine, what i want to say is: F3, BTCC, S2000, KC engines are build by TOP Class engine builders, here you can learn more on 1 engine than on 20 average engines.....and in that respect good value....
     
  13. Mike_H Forum Addict

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    I think you should go for a look - view it as an interesting day out. Valuation depends entirely on what you find when you get there.
     
  14. Brian.G

    Brian.G Forum Member

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    Maybe I should, I can walk away(with pics) if nothing else.
     
  15. mr hillclimber Club GTI Supporter and Sponsor

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    I've had a good look at one of these (heads) at close hand. They are "very" nice, but nothing that cant be re-created.

    The one I flowtested had 41/36 valves, great top end flow to suit the very high lift cams used, but less low-mid flow than the more conventional heads... like Danster has pointed out... made for the purpose of it's use.

    If it's very cheap, couple of hundred quid, then worth havin, but... by the time you replace valves, buckets if needed, maybe broken springs, cracked guides...it'll add up. Have a "good" look before you buy.

    A good second head, complete one will cost 1200 quid, so if buying and re-furbing heads toward that you just as well buy a ready to go one.

    The 2ltr F3 used to run 82.25mm bores, so it may have been re-linered after a blow up to a conventional size for ease of piston & ring availability.
     
  16. TonyB Paid Member Paid Member

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    Just thought I'd add my tupenece worth to try and fill in a few gaps. I saw this engine for sale a few weeks ago, it was up for 3500.00 complete as I recall - bargain for an F3 Spiess engine, I'd have brought it if I had the money just for the Dry sump kit if nothing else - but I don't[:^(]. It's not the last version of the F3 Spiess but a very late one.

    I spent a lot of time looking in to these engines before building my last 8v engine and from my experience I'd say you don't need to use F3, you can achieve the same if not more power with "off the shelf' componets. I only use some F3 parts and really because I had then and they have character (and do the job), that's what I wanted. The quality of the parts is fantastic as you'd expect but they are made to a very specific set of rules, much of which hinders producing more power rather than help once you 'un-restrict' them.

    Once the F3 rules are removed the head is good but the cams are not, too much lift and not enough duration. Lift is good but at 15mm not much good for long term reliability. The throttle bodies again are good but on the flow bench don't quite do what you think and produce some odd results with different porting (as Mr H and I found). The thinking is that Spiess stuck with the Early head for the short turn on floors of the ports as opposed to the chambered head that has a much bigger radius. As I understand the block is a later block as they have the two oil returns, you have to use a bespoke gasket from Spiess (if you can get one) to sort out he different oil return holes. You can obviously block them up but I don't believe Spiess did for some reason, they used a bespoke gasket (hat's what I was told by some specialists and F3 racers). If it as a good Idea then they would have done that.

    Again F3 engines use compression ratios of 15 or 16:1 and the engines run right on the edge of destruction, they only have to run for a race or two and F3 teams aren't short of cash for rebuilds generally. They run with slight detonation and the pistons are only expected to last a few hrs. I have never had a Spiess piston/crank in my hands but understand that they ran a very long stroke, it's the torque that gave them the edge in F3 right in to the 90's so I wouldn't be surprised if the sleeving down is a standard Spiess feature. I've got a 91 head and measuring the gasket marks I reckon the bores were no bigger than 82mm. Couldn't be much smaller though as the valves are big! Assumed the bored out an 1800 block and sleeved it back for reliability.

    The rods are very light as F3 engines don't rev high. They spin up real fast but top out around 6500 or 7000rpm due to the air restrictions. I guess the crank is a bespoke item as they would have run the capacity right up to the edge of the class limit, to within a cc I would guess.

    Even though the head casting is Std VW the amount of work Spiess do is impressive, even down to ceramic coating the internal water ways to avoid the head going porous due to the mount of metal that was removed from the ports (a common problem with earlier F3 engines).

    As I said if I had the cash I'd buy it bent valves or not. By the way, I think you'll find they use a totally bespoke valve with a 6mm stem! Schrick and G&S still list them but I doubt they would be on the shelf. You might have to but a quanitity anthough I do have a contact for an engine builder in the midlands who I'm told builds F3 VW's and has an account with Spiess. Wouldn't like to think what Spiess would charge for bits even if they were interested in supplying.

    Race engine builders tend to specialise in an engine whilst it is active but then just throw everything away and move on so it's difficult to get replacement parts. One more reason for not going totally F3 with my engine, the parts are getting rare so a shame to wreck them for no reason. The rarer they get the more expensive they will become as there is still a market for VW F3 engines in historic racing.

    Anyway that's what I think ;)
     
  17. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    So far this is what I've collated on the old F3 2.0 engines - work in progress:

    Bore Stroke Rod length Sump Year Power Torque C/R Max revs ECU Comments Builder
    82.25mm 94mm dry 1986 168bhp 140lb/ft @ 5,100rpm 12.7:1 Brabham, max revs 6,200rpm
    82.25mm 94mm dry 1986 162bhp @ 5,400rpm 164lb/ft @ 5,000rpm 11.5:1 Lumention Lucas mechanical inj John Judd Engine Developments, Golf GTI engine, 23mm restrictor
    82.25mm 94mm dry Speiss, 41mm inlet / 36mm exhaust

    I'm aware the quoted compressions might need a pinch of salt, or have changed since. The dimensions - some assumptions made. It's all piecemeal information. Low revving nature is borne out though.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 17, 2013
  18. Brookster

    Brookster Paid Member Paid Member

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    Ilmor F3 Engine 14:1 compression 176bhp ! 24mm Air intake restrictor fitted

    Motec M400 ECU

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2010
  19. Brian.G

    Brian.G Forum Member

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    Its funny you should mention the bit I highlighted, just researching the very same thing just yesterday concerning said problem,

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poly%28methyl_methacrylate%29
    Some other aspects treating a casting with the above,

    Very low-viscosity (less than that of water)

    Components are placed in a large autoclave and the pressure reduced to 10 mbar absolute or below

    Resin then Introduced
    Drained and centrifuged to recover as much of the surplus resin as possible, the components then go through a two-stage washing process to emulsify any remaining surface product.


    Interesting even if veering off original post. Still no pictures, hes getting another ring shortly.

    Thanks for your great post, as well as all the other ones too.:thumbup:

    BG
     
  20. HPR

    HPR Administrator Admin

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    From: www.bodycote.com

    Hot Isostatic Pressing
    Formula 1 engine blocks and heads have been designed with Bodycotes Densal process in mind for many years. High-stress turbo impellers are Densal HIPped to extend their fatigue life. The introduction of DensalII, a cost-effective method of eliminating internal porosity and voids in aluminium castings, now allows the designer to incorporate HIP into mass-produced vehicles without the cost penalty of previous HIP methods. Bodycotes DensalII process means that designers and foundries can manufacture lighter, thinner castings, which benefit from the improved microstructural homogeneity and material properties resulting from this process.
     

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