Discussion in '8-valve' started by Brian.G, Nov 29, 2010.
In F3, they're Hewland type things, specific to those cars.
Ah, I know the ones. I have info on them somewhere. As In paper info, not in my harddrive, Ill try find. (try)
Awesome pics, really a wealth of info there. Kudos to you guys!
Any word on rod lengths Brian?
Mailed him Chris, he said he'd check as soon as the festive season is over.
Rods look like they could be from Pankl, obviously their older designs.
Check out www.pankl.com
144mm exactly, thats gospel too. He just rang me there.
Thanks Brian, just gives a real steer on how creative or not they were getting with rod lengths with these motors
He wants 800 EUR for just the crank, for the head, or for the whole lot?
Hugo, are these 2 litre engine outputs or 1.6? They look low!
2.0L with a 24 mm air restrictor
Thanks, all updated on here:
- comments / detail welcome!
I went to look at this today, as I'm in Ireland on business. I intended to buy it and use it for the classic touring car engine, but in the end I walked away. Brian.G, HPR, Mr Hillclimber and TonyB all gave me advice to get this far, so big thanks to them.
I'm not 100% sure I did the right thing, as there was a lot of kit on offer for not a lot of money, considering (Head, F3 cam and a Newmans Race Job, Verner, Inlet manifold - all for 500 Euro. There was also a set of flat top Omega pistons on offer at extra cost). I thought I'd post this up in case anyone else is interested. The seller wasn't very happy when I walked away. I went there with the money in my pocket, but wasn't happy with what I saw, so maybe someone else will buy it and then it all ends well.
However, there were a few issues with both the head and the story behind it. There were a few details in the story I was told that were different to what Brian.G posted up on here. The big area of doubt was whether the seller had actually run the head or not. He told me that he'd done a season's racing on it, and later told me two seasons. Also, there was a bit of doubt about whether it had bent valves or not - He'd told Brian it did, and told me he though they were OK (said he'd done a leak test with petrol down the ports).
However, I've been running around buying 2nd hand car parts for long enough to know that people often tell you whatever the previous seller told them. So I made up my mind that I was going to have a good look before I bought. I went armed with a vernier caliper, feeler gauges, and the 'front light' app on my iPhone 4, which uses the camera flash as a torch.
When I met the seller in a hotel car park (late - I'd got lost a couple of times) and he opened the boot of the car, the alarm bells started ringing. These rare, expensive parts were piled on top of eachother, metal to metal, rather than being wrapped in cardboard, bubble wrap, or something like that. Still, I thought, nothing that can't be sorted out with a light skim and fettle, probably.
I measured up the valves - 41mm inlets, and 36.2 exhausts - odd size, but I'd heard they might be that. The measurement across the two valves was about 78mm (minimal gap in between) and I thought they *might* just fit in a 1600 bore to build a real screamer. Failing that, I'd have figured out a way to build a 2.0 on them. There was some really nice work on the valve throat area too.
I shone the torch down the ports, and looked for light leakage round the valves. It was much more on a couple of the inlets, and I could easily get a 0.1mm feeler gauge underneath one side of them. Diagnosis: At least two bent valves. Not bent by much, but bent enough! The cam and tappets were still in the head, so it wasn't possible to check all of them. Casts a lot of doubt on the 'I poured petrol down the ports and it didn't leak' story I'd heard though. 20w50 oil maybe, but petrol would have pished through those gaps, unless Irish petrol is a lot stickier than the stuff I've seen.
Next, I checked the tappet bores for wear. Tricky with the tappets in place, but the thinnest feeler gauge (0.05mm) was just about catching in the gap on the front and rear of the tappet bore. I concluded there was a bit of wear in there, but probably OK to run - might need some rectification at a later date. The seller did say it was pretty rattly from the top end. That's often the case with lairy race engines, high lift cams, etc, but it could indicate movement in the lifters too.
Finally, I spotted that the porting had broken through the port walls on some of the inlet (I think) ports. It was at this point I decided to walk away, fearing water jacket problems and lots more work and expense to sort it out. The seller later texted me and said the holes were all through to the head bolt bores, not the water jacket. I guess this makes sense, and maybe I walked too quickly, but I didn't like the look of it, and wondered what other problems might be hiding under the surface. I guess they wouldn't have a major impact on flow, but more something for a pure race engine, rather than mine, which could get a few road miles too.
So, if anyone's interested in buying the head, it's still a lot of rare bits for the money, if you've got the time, skills and inclination to sort out the problems, and if you're confident you can get the valves and other bits it might need.
On the plus side... the scenery driving down from Cork to Waterford was fantastic!
Mike, no bother with the help, it wasnt much and I wish I could have done more. Great to speak to you too
I guess its just one of those times when it might be all for luck, if it didn't feel right, then Id say you did the right thing. Nothing lost, nothing gained. There will be others, great write up too by the way, for any potential other buyers.
That was a pity Mike.
It sounds like there are indeed a couple of bent valves, which could have been replaced, bit I'm with you on being told porkie pies.... why people cant be honest and think we're all dumb is beyond me.
And yes... piling any engine bits on top of each other is a sign of someone who either does'nt care or does'nt know much about much.
The Speiss heads are indeed broken through into the head bolt holes.... I've done the same on the big port engines. It is'nt a problem as the bolt shoulder/washer seals the top, and the head gasket seals the bottom... I have sleeved one but it did'nt really need it... though I have recently found big flow (in Spiess territory) while keeping the ports a touch smaller... so they dont need to be quite that big... but casting shift can have an effect on the outcome also.
You could always phone him and leave him with an offer to ponder over.
They should'nt really be that rattley, race cam or not... mine's not.
Look on the bright side Mike... it was'nt that cheap.... I bought my head with bent valves, 3x cams, vernier pulley... 'and' Cosworth pistons with H-section steel rods for 150 quid!
Yeah, I still have mixed feelings about it, but the risks were starting to stack up... If it was usable with minor repairs, then its a high spec head for a lot less than it would cost to get one built, and a few other bits to either use with it or sell off. If I build something near that spec, you're getting up around two grand, by the time you've paid for bigger valves & seats, fancy lifters, springs, retainers, lumpy cam, vernier.....
There was always a chance that Airport Security would have taken exception to the lumps of metal in my bag and started asking awkward questions. Strictly speaking, you're not allowed to take any part of a used fuel system onto a plane - either as hold or cabin baggage.
Sounds like it could have been grief all round Mike. Not to worry... at least what you build yourself you know what you have.
I might have something that interests u guys. How do i sdd pics here?
upload photos to photobucket. copy the photobucket URL link into the post
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