Me too... My old ITBd 16v made 189BHP on the same dyno @ TSR (193 when mapped on DynoDynamic so not a million miles out IMO) ianbs 16v would have been very similar having topped 200BHP at Stealth. In today's CGTi circles it seems the "only" dyno to believe is Garage Streamline though-meaning everywhere else must be giving vastly inflated figures... All I go on is how these figures translate to on road (track) performance & in this respect Ian's TSR fettled car was a match for mine on Jenveys/DTA. it also had the highest top speed of all the Valvers at the Golf+ Bruntingthorpe day @ 135.5 so it's performance cannot be doubted...
Bruntingthorpe was 2004, years ago. Have you read and digested this thread? I suggest checking a few old dyno graphs for peak positions.
The point of the 16v day was for these very questions. On what would or wouldn't work for a particular engine. If more people turned up there would be a broader spectrum and real world "on the day" data. And maybe more KR/ 9A's rather than the proven ABF . For less the cost of cams an ABF could be fitted and you'd have ~165hp your looking for and you could even make it look like a kr with the kjet. Just can't see the point of retro tuning, technology has moved on now and there are better ways of doing things, and for less money. Why bolt on something that you cant fully optimse on your engine?
So because something was a few years back is it null & void in the modern Megasquirt world? C'mon Chris be serious.... I'm not wanting this thread to become a p*ssing contest with outputs My point is that the strong kjet cars of the day were all a match for my own with a DD 190bhp output- they delivered the goods. If you want to look past the TSR cars there was Iguana, VW_Singh & GVK who all showed well. Are we nowsaying these cars were all slow antiques as we all know the megasquirted modern equivalents won't be light years quicker if any....
*cough* kjet.. ahem.. *cough* carbs (both of these can be great fun though) 'scuse my cough there Isn't there a CFJ plot showing 170 bhp on dyno dynamics? I did find that 200bhp figure from the TSR Golf Performance Manual difficult to believe, I mean can you imagine that engine putting out more on the day than Hotgolfs 2.1 or the F2Stu-mobile? The Garage Streamline events are the most thorough I've read about or attended. Proper correlation using vehicles in good health that are either factory or very close to factory ensures the rollers are reading right. RPM scales are checked to make sure all the bumps are in the right places & that the figures are feasible taking into account specification, calibration & ambient conditions (a plot for a car with a 7500 rpm rev limit, showing rev limit at 7000rpm on the test = scrap paper). End result is that in the absense of proper climate controlled facilities, data is as controlled and repeatable as can be. Getting a little sidetracked there.. The Garage themselves are not unique, instead it is the affiliation with Herr ToyoPastorTecVentilWerke & the dedication to providing clear & concise VW data with a dash of myth busting thrown in.
Thats the same as my current engine except I dont have the increased rev limit and currently have a hotgolf modded ex cam in the inlet, its nippy low down and theres a very noticeable pick up at 4300rpm and pulls well to the line, got kent 27? somethings that I could put in but K-jet, cams and lightened flywheel make for frustrating revy town driving, I did previously have them fitted when It was an ABF bottom end and I dont miss them, nor the ABF tbh, ACE ftw!
I took ages to write that and loads of posting about k-jet being outdated has popped up, after buying fitting and tuning megasquirt on a dyno how many of you guys have got change from 600quid? Ill stick to spending 70quid at stealth the have the fueling optimized and ing timing made safe, my car wont be miles behind yours but my heavier wallet might slow me down.
Tshirt2k- As engine is already a 2L 16v ACE unit I have no interest in going the ABF/Megasquirt route. Whilst the ABF engine is undoubtedly good & the pick of the factory motors- the extra height meant my Eibach strut brace would no longer fit & is the whole reason I didn't go ABF initially. All other strut braces I have ever seen were cr*p so I really wanted it to stay given it's a mod that really works. I have chosen an ABF head to replace my ACE however... There seems to be little looking past the ABF/digi/Megasquirt setups into mk2s nowadays it seems? Did Toyotecs ABF/K-Jet validation car not make ~160BHP/145lbs/ft from memory at Garage Streamline? All from fiddling with the mixture screw & turning the dizzy?? Not half bad. Add a flowed head, tweak the WUR & you have a usable & very swift mk2 valver
Its not all about headline figures previously mentioned. There is a thing called driveabilty/response too. And the ABF on kjet is different again to your engine, so you cant really compare them.
Nowhere really just a educated guess on what it cost to get your car running on MS instead of K-jet, doing the sort of work a amateur could do. Built ECU with loom - ignition related stuff - few other random bits - mapping on dyno, thats pretty close to 600 there. My point was that you cant compare the two like for like, why is running k-jet on modified valvers suddenly unacceptable?
I beg to differ. Feel free to put me right though... The characteristics of ANY 2L 16v 9A/6A/ABF/ACE are extremely similar when fitted with either KR or ABF cams & fuelled with kjet. No difference to speak of from a hardware point of view & likewise with power/torque outputs. All pretty similar & old ground. I can't see a megasquirted car driving night & day different in terms of response/pickup either I appreciate a nicely mapped car will be better on fuel part throttle etc etc- but it's an old GTi. Fuel economy is not top of the priority list. As nick says- why the sudden shuddering from all at the thought of a tweaked valver on kjet? It's how they ALL used to be :-)
At no stage have I said old = null/void. My reference to 2004 is to recognise that tuning has come on since then, so having the highest top speed then ignores progress. There's nothing wrong with old plots per se, but that we're getting smarter on CGTI about reading & understanding dyno outputs In the thread I linked to, there is a mention of high outputs from the past with misplaced output peaks, Ben S mentions above. Move torque further up the rev range than is real, and power increases through a process of maths, power = torque x rpm. That linked thread is a complex read, but it's well worth going back to, because it highlights that peak power/torque figures can be traced from backside to G-Meter to Dyno to OEM. It also says to shift output peaks around takes hardware changes. A standard shortblock 6A/9A produces peak torque at 4.2k/4.4k shown here (ignore the ACE briefly due to std junk cams). That bank of knowledge is the start point. To move that peak torque to 6.5k with no compression increase, standard plenum and mild cams is impossible. It's the cold towel we've needed for years. Such outputs are wrong/skewed/inflated. So the point, seeing as this thread was about cams, is cams and K-Jet originality are fine, but shooting for numbers whilst referencing to incorrect past tests as gospel is misleading - and the misplaced peaks prove it.
9A/6A/ACE = 220mm block, 144mm rods ABF = 236mm block, 159mm rods ACE cams < ABF cams 9A/6A ? ACE & ABF have the later head combustion chambers with rounded corners (thread on this topic soon). 9A / 6A have the earlier type. I'm sure someone can fill in the remaining gaps!
At the end of the day, Chris, if you're determined to make it 'Old Skool' it's your car and your money, but if someone posts on the forum suggesting they're thinking of spending a chunk of money on performance kit, it's part of the normal discussion process to suggest alternatives, based on collective experience. I'm sure JMR will do you a great job on a cylinder head. The results in other cars require no further explanation. However if you want to get the best out of the car in its current state, or with a ported head or with cams, then for power I'd bet a load of money you'd get a bigger gain on Megasquirt / Other Mappable Management. It's telling that on the 16v RR day, VW_Singh's std ABF on Megasquirt got better numbers than a lot of cars with flowed heads / cams / other 'old skool' tuning tweaks. Having gone down the Megasquirt route on the track scirocco, there's no way I'd go back to Kjet, but if you've read all that and want to go a different way, you're entitled to make your own decisions.
Have you driven a megasquirted and well mapped car? If not your imagination won't let you be able to compare something that you feel is already pretty good. Ask someone who has changed from kjet to megasquirt on here. I'm sure they'll confirm it. I didnt feel that the digi could be improved on by much, even off boost and lowered compression. But it has been. If Fuel economy is not a priority, you may aswell put bike carbs on?? Big numbers and old technology As modders we all want to find better ways of doing things, a valver on kjet will get you there, but itsnot the most effective way. Steam trains can still get you across the country, but were in 2011 now there are faster, queiter and more efficient ways to do it now, time's moved on.
Hey ChrisMC! Been a long time eh? I think if you want to stick to k-jet then do just that. I have driven healthy k-jet ABF mk2s also and I do know they pull very very well too. To be fair my ABF on k-jet was never set up properly. A flowed head and cams with healthy k-jet will still be good and pull hard. And back on topic, you may want to try Essthrees cam combo of 268inlet and factory ex cams. Seems to work very well for him with uber strong torque throughout. He does mention using both 268 inlet &ex gave more peak but dropped midrange. Gurds
Well you know my car from previous post on other threads, If I was going for new cams I would not pussey foot around and buy something decent that will rev to 7800 plus. Around 280 or larger duration. But I have 264 my car powers to 6800. May as well aim to have a cam (spend money) on something that will when other hardware is added be of benefit in the future. For a standard engine I would stick with the ABF cams (I can sell you some too). What cams did the other k jet cars run? Give use some options for what you are thinking about. To add as well I would not buy regrinds again but go for new blanks. Something like this V16VBP300M 3000‑7500 280deg
