ABF tuning...then, to now...

Discussion in '16-valve' started by Ess Three, Mar 5, 2009.

  1. Ess Three Forum Member

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    I found a load of scanned Dyno Plots of my Mk3 16v over several years worth of playing about...thought they might be of interest so some. These were all taken on the same dyno, with the same operator over the years...I tried to use the same type of fuel (95 octane) and same wheel and tyre type/size etc...but some things have changed which will affect things.

    At home I have a Dyno Plot of it standard...and it made 151BHP/137 lb-ft I think.
    Pretty spot on for a standard ABF.

    Standard with an AmD re-map:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Standard airbox, filter, TB, exhaust, cat etc...
    Just the re-map.
    Got about a dozen different plots taken at different times pretty much showing the same. That's just two of them.

    Not the 'claimed' 175 BHP it showed on AmDs rollers!


    Same re-map, but different exhaust, cat, modified TB, modified airbox, K&N panel filter etc...usual bolt-ons and basic work. I have a stack of these with each step tested back to back...but not all are scanned...so here's an example:
    [​IMG]

    Got 312mm front brakes on by now, still a standard 'box...maybe accounts for more drag?


    The next three were after the ported head and cams went it.
    Some will know, I played with cams (it spent about a month down at Star) and all sorts was tried...settling on the Blydenstein head and Schrick 268 in/std ex cam combination.
    also, the manifolds (in and ex) were match ported or re-worked by Bill Blydenstein.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    The gearbox was fitted with a 3.94 FD by now, and a Quaife diff.
    Nothing else had changed from the earlier plots (TB, airbox, exhaust, cat etc)


    After final mapping and tweaking, it ended up here:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I'm not going to argue for or against the accuracy of the Dyno...
    Some makes total sense...there are a few anomolies...
    But it shows the gains.

    With regard to the Dyno, it's a MAHA, and I've tried many standard cars on there and got sensible figures, so I reckon it's pretty accurate.
    The 16v GTI made 151 BHP standard, Lupo GTI made 126 standard, my S3 made 208 standard (was a 210) and my 911 made 316 standard (should be 320PS)...so pretty close.

    Around 195BHP with 160ish lb-ft would seem fairly good to me.
    I can't get the damn thing over 200 bHP though, despite trying a standalone ECU and the Schrick ex cam again...it's going to need ITBs to break that, as the standard manifold/injectors seem to be holding me back.

    I hope someone was interested...
     
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  2. Collie Forum Junkie

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    good right up, whats next,
    are you goin to change manifold and injectors?
     
  3. lufbramatt Forum Member

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    excellent info, cheers!

    seems like i need to get mine remapped next then.
     
  4. Ess Three Forum Member

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    Yup, I am.

    Jenvey DTHs, running 8 injectors (inners sequentially, outers hung over the bellmouths in batch mode)
    Get the Schrick 268 ex cam back in...
    And go from there.
    Still keeping the Cat too!
     
  5. Matt82

    Matt82 Forum Addict

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    cant wait to see this when i get home, the pics are blocked at work.
     
  6. Natedogg Forum Member

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    awesome mate. really good to see geniune back to beack development work and see the gain achieved.
     
  7. vw_singh Events Team Paid Member

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    Nice thread Glen.

    Maybe try just changing the injectors and recalibrate with standalone before going throttle bodies 1st? From what i have read, the standard injectors are probably maxed out by now.

    Some of the the japanese cars such as Primeras and other nissans use the same format injectors. Might be worth a shot.

    Gurds
     
  8. azur Forum Member

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    Nice one Glen, Very helpful.

    Whats the difference between Engine output and power? Isn't DIN 70020 the german PS version and engine output the one we are used to?

    Looking at those specs hopefully im similar to the 170.5 bhp one which would be good... how come the difference between that and the DIN is larger there than on other runs?
     
  9. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    Yes the SR20DE/T and pre 95 RB25DE/T use side feed injectors that do fit once you are willing to modify the top part of the fuel rail case.
     
  10. Ess Three Forum Member

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    I'm pretty sure the injectors are indeed maxxed out...
    I had MS on for a while and asking for more fuel didn't provide any on the narrowband or wideband.

    Sadly, my MS runs a MAP sensor too...so it didn't solve my cam issues.
    I only worked out it was the pulsing, not the lamnda control that was at fault after the conversion to MS.

    I'm not wasting any more time on the standard stuff...

    I'm always going to have a bottleneck with the standard inlet manifold (even with 50+ hours of porting and polishing done on it!)
    The 8 inj ITBs stuff is almost there now (I've been at it over 2 years!) so I'm off straigh to that, giving lots of fuel...then we'll go with the bigger ex cam...then see what's what.

    I don't want to go above 7500 RPM really, as the costs go up with the bottom work required after that.
    My top end has lightweight lifters, Ti retainers etc...so I'm all all OK up top.

    I'm pretty much there with 8 injectors, wasted spark ignition.
    Just a few brackets to do and a new set of custon HT leads as the first set I did I didn't use the std ABF dizzy, so I lost my cam position sensor...which i'm now adding to go fully sequential as I'm upping the inner injectors and need to keep it clean.

    So Jenveys it is...
    Then we'll see what becomes the bottleneck.

    When? Is another question entirely! :lol:
     
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  11. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    To get over 200bhp on these particular rollers you would need to get the torque to drop off a bit slower @ approx 7000rpm or get the torque to have the same shape but be greater. Perhaps adjustable internal cam gears may the solution to your targets.
    Thats some good work you posted up there. Was drawn to the updated cam shaft sweep where the bump in torque suggests 'the engine is on cam'. May not correlate to some other dyno but, hey, if you can show that the a component or its interaction makes a 10 or 15% gain in certain conditions or over a spread or engine speed then it will be tranferable to what ever measureing device regardless of its calibration.
    What this has shown is the engine has shifted its breathing to the right of the rpm range without much drivablity loss in the OEM regions. Must be a hoot to drive.
     
  12. Ess Three Forum Member

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    I'm not prepared to drop significant torque.
    Its a full road spec Mk3, with a full interior, air-con and a 18.5 st driver....so I can't afford to drop torque!

    I can get 200 easily...fit the Schrick ex cam,
    That gives an additional 4BHP, but looses 15 lb-ft everywhere once it's on cam, and completely buggers up the idle and emissions.
    So, no thanks.

    I have the cam still...it WILL work! One day...



    Possibly so...I need to get it so I can map it all myself first...it's too much grief getting the Digifant 3.2 mapped remotely each time.
    I'll probably need intercam verniers then.


    And 'on cam' is certainly is...pretty much standard ABF below 4000, by 4500 you get a hardening of the induction note and off it goes. You need to use 7000+ to get the best from it.


    Indeed.
    The head is a special one-off head by the late Bill Blydenstein, and the work was done to do exactly that - prevent loss low down, but add top end.
    The cam choice was his suggestion too, as I recall.


    As much as a heavy-assed ill handling Mk3 can be!
    The 3.94 + Quaife help there...as do the chassis mods.

    Is a surprise for many, that's for sure.
     
  13. Brookster

    Brookster Paid Member Paid Member

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    Good thread very interesting reading.

    Just one question why are you going for the 8 injectors set up ?

    My friend has a 2.1L 16V 9A running 45mm weber alpha throttle bodies etc, 4 injectors 380cc i think, 300deg CAT Cams, BRM Big Valve Head 240 bhp @ flywheel .

    He is looking to up the bodies to 48's and 440cc injectors with DTA Management.
     
  14. Ess Three Forum Member

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    IIRC DIN70020 is just normailised to 1000mb atmospheric pressure and 20 degrees C ambient temperature, after measured coastdown losses are added to wheel power.

    It should give a consistant BHP figure regardless of ambient parameters, assuming the factors affecting 'coastdown' remain unchanged.


    I'm not exactly sure...
    I know on one run we used coastdown to diagnose a sticking front brake calliper...thet then had to get stripped and freed off.
    Also, from early to late, the gearing changed...a Quaife went in...so the losses will have gone up....the negative camber has crept up too - now at just under -2.0 per side, the toe has gone up too...all adding scrubbing and losses.
    The tyres remain the same size, but T1Ss became T1Rs and the pressures had to change to get the T1Rs to behave like T1Ss...so that'll affect it too.

    It's hard to know...
    Some are better than others...

    The basic point was, I have about a dozen showing 116-120 WHP/150ish FWHP from the early days...and two, on different days, proving where it ended up.
    The in-between stuff, interesting as it may or may not be, is largely irrelevant unless you are chasing specific gains fron specific changes (airbox, TB, Cat, Exhaust) and although I do have all those plots (I think I have 50+) they tend to be done back to back on the same day...so the losses should be same from one to the next.

    Overall, it makes similar power at the wheels to a well set-up and mildly tweaked VR6, but with WAY more grip.
     
  15. Ess Three Forum Member

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    :thumbup:


    Because I can, and I don't know anyone else who has!
    Why run a Schrick 268 in/std ex combo?
    Same reason, I suppose...it works, and I enjoy being awkward! :lol:



    I'm probably going to run 2 x 317cc 1.8T injectors. I may go smaller on the inners...not sure yet.
    That's what I have so far...along with some 100cc but they are just a bit small for under 4000 RPM, I think.

    I'm looking for around 210 on the same dyno...with the ex cam in, and all mapped.
    Maybe more...depends on the head flow I suppose.

    If I run 317cc x 2, I can run it with 4 or 8...and prove one way or another if this mythical 5-10% from pre-mixxing fuel with an air/fuel mix really exists, or not.


    Nice! :thumbup:
     
  16. Brookster

    Brookster Paid Member Paid Member

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    Same Cam set -up as me ! Schrick 268 and a 3.94 Final drive (in 020 with Quaiffe LSD)

    Will be interesting what i get when i finish the 2.1L 16V Project following your results. will be on a different roller thou.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2009
  17. Ess Three Forum Member

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    I'd love a all steel 2.1 bottom end...sadly, sadled with a big mortgage as I am, it's never going to happen!

    Are you running 268/268?
    Or 268/std?
     
  18. GVK

    GVK Paid Member Paid Member

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    Interesting thread, and it goes some way of explaining NigePs disappointment of his 150ish bhp sub 130 lb/ft results on a Maha set up this week.
     
  19. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    Thats is not what I meant. Torque by rev factor result in horsepower measurement.
    At the peak torque measurement on your engine speed range and to get 200BHP as a mesurement, your torque curve in this area needs to have its drop off gradient softened or have the same gradient at an increased value.
    The suggestion of the internal adjustable gears could achieve that as it could cause the torque bump to shift right by 100-200rpm without any noticable change in drive feel sub 3K. This way you would not have to change the hardware (cams) and have your cake and eat it too.
    Your suggestion of optimising engine control may also be worthy of doing the above to lesser degree.
    Looks like you almost there.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2009
  20. tshirt2k

    tshirt2k Forum Junkie

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    I understood what you meant.:p
     

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