There are a few beliefs around that must be seen in the right context.... The VW 16V is a bad design.... well its not a pentroof and it was never meant for racing / high performance and yes the ports could be better... With Exhaust valves at 90 and Inlet valves at 25 degree.... you are able to use high lift cams without much worry that in/ exh valves clash near TDC ( at overlap) and the pistons are kept flat.... even at a high compression ratio with a high dome and and deep pockets to clear the inlet valves..... its still a reasonable good combustion chamber at TDC Then we could compare to Pentroof combustion chambers who are often seen as the better design ...which it is ... atleast if valve angles are keept narrow, say less than 30 degree included angle but with wider included valve angles ( say 40 - 60 degree) it has it compromises too when we look again at high lift cams, in combination with bigger valves or even the STD size valves.... it can become a compromise to avoid in / exh valves to clash ( or it get far too close to be safe ) and now you get at both sides of the piston deep valve pockets.... for a high compression... the piston dome can become really high.... and in some cases it doesnt look that good at all In the end whatever the outlay its always a compromise....and it need often some tricks to avoid some things ... or atleast keep it within reason.... that is where seasoned engine builders take advantage....in finding the best compromises On the oettinger head/engine in general , its in itself a very nice design.... altough the valves are smaller than on the VW 16V.. Bolt on power without much machining or trickery .... i tend to say ca 235 hp.... on condition the basics are done right
Have been involved in a few 16vT engine builds and tuning, the torque from a turbo engine is night a day from the same NASP engine. You can rev the NASP engine to make power with less relative torque and multiply the gearbox ratios to have similar axle torque to a turbo car on high gearing. But is is still not the same. I have both types of car. As a reference to that dyno and the peak number you quoted, stock ABF engines with maybe a chip have been seen to achieve 178bhp on those old Sun rollers! It suggests your engine had other optimizations to realize the benefit of the head work. As the owner of both a 16vT and a 20vT car, the 20vT in stock form is engineered to be what it is and is easy to turn the boost up on existing hardware and have a reasonable fast car. 16vTs take dedication and understanding what you are doing to make a durable/powerful package. ABF engines tend to benefit from a bespoke engine map and then from there specific hardware is required to get it to run as you require. You have to know the tricks for these engines to work around their inherit bad design, else you will end up with an engine that performs worse than a ECU remapped stock engine. Have facilities to do the cylinder head work is a massive bonus that many of us do not have. Some good points Tony! I will like to add though, the actual drive characteristics that is required from a vehicle and its powertrain, needs to be established first, before a determining what torque demands are required and what components will be needed to do deliver such torque, robustly and over a broad range of conditions. Ally says he has access to a machine shop and is in Kent. Therefore his actually closer to Saxon Motorsports if he gets stuck. Mark does know his stuff at that outfit and is the builder of several Production GTI Golfs and engines. Alternatively, there is Charlie Mahoney's 's CTM Performance in Romford, who's 40 year experiences with all engines, including VW stuff as been very valuable to me and Garage Streamline over the years. Charlie also has a flow bench. Of course there is the 'man in the shed' so plenty of choice for VW engine work. Spot on HPR! Some good conversation going on in this thread!
Funny you mention Saxon Motorsport toyotec, I know Mark very well and used to work for him in 2010 and learnt a lot off him, before moving over to the 2011 GT1 World Championship with JRM and Nissan and Nismo, which we won the drivers title. Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
Also like to say thanks to everyone for their very useful information and help so far in not only helping me out but others who may view these posts :-) Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
I keep forgetting to mention Mark on here and he has helped me out several times and shown me some of his projects. You will be in good hands with Mark.
The place i help out at on weekends has had what seems to be a reliable 280hp out of a 2.0 16v (Vini Dobsons Mk1 hillclimb car), mostly off the shelf parts in a specific combination and the only custom work (so to speak) being the head modifications. Plenty of piston/ rods/ valvetrain choices out there for these nowadays. Being honest, and from memory, my boss didnt think it would quite make that power but it did from what we were told!
Lovely engine bay there, simple and effective!. Must not look too hard as I've been thinking on and off about throttle bodying my Mk2, but I like the torque of the G60. I suppose that's the main factor, lower range grunt of a super/ turbo charged engine or higher revving nature of a na build. All depends on what you want out of the car. I'm lazy with the gears so the charger route suites me fine.
Over priced IMO and outdated. I would rather get my own head made if real progress had to be made for a fatter power ad torque line. But then why reinvent the wheel (or the head) for a fraction of the expense, you can use the cylinder head from an FSI. Still not cheap though.
Talking about performance products of the shelf , it depend where you draw the line .... as bolt on parts, without much machining and trickery. For pistons and rods there is supply from most of the popular brands, amongst other stuff as valves, valvesprings, that you can buy... and depending how well you know the performance market.....and often thanks to some companies who ordered custom parts who are made in relative small batches...and who supply them nowadays...on condition that there is market... And even today the proper high-end stuff is not as straight forward to source....and when things become extreme, then it becomes often custom parts.... or you end up with all sort compromises in the engine build.... that can be avoided by starting from clean sheet solutions.....
This is so true for so much 'motorsport' stuff that gets sold. Was good when new at its time, but now outdated and often worn out. Buyer beware.
As already mentioned quite correctly, there's lots of quoted figures out there in La-La land but in the real world 230-240hp is decent power. I've done 230-240-250hp versions but they still need attention to detail to achieve those figures with a mixture of off the shelf bits modded to suit and a few custom bits for good measure. Look at cams in the 290 zone for the lower end of the above figures and 300+ degrees at the upper end of the scale. Std valve sizes will make the above power in a properly ported head (don't ask me as I take too long apparently...the downside to being busy generally), and look at the details in both the overall build plus exhaust and induction sizes & lengths. Even at the lower power output torque is more than strong enough to fire a lightweight mk1 or mk2 up the road...bigger power figures come from only a little more torque but more revs and improved high end breathing...which is where component selection and strength come into it.
Lots of bolx out there, and lots of engines which when put on different more widely referenced dynos don't make anywhere near the same power. Also, figures that are produced when not using any engine ancillaries on engine dynos to gain extra figures. Misleading at best. Having talked so several people of late its surprising what tuners promise in the way of power figures which they then fail to get for p155 poor reasons.
There are a few Brazilian VW Gol 16v's running plus 300bhp but massive compression (14.5 : 1 plus ) and race fuel VP M1 and Nitromethane for the 1/4mile 9.9 second 1/4s All motor https://youtu.be/5PsWVYR9WdI To do a 9.9 sec run it must be arround 400bhp
