Mk2 & 3 Golf/Ibiza/Passat subframe widths

Discussion in 'Chassis' started by A.N. Other, Aug 16, 2010.

  1. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    I've got a Mk3 Golf/Ibiza Mk2 subframe - what's needed?
     
  2. Andy947 Forum Addict

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    The passat subframe is not any wider.

    As you pointed out, the passat shafts are just a fraction longer to compensate for the wider track. How else could it all bolt straight onto a Mk2. . . .


    The Bolts which mount the subframe to the car are wider apart on the Passat - Perhaps somone has got confused with the measurements. . . .
     
  3. rubjonny

    rubjonny Administrator Admin

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    need to get the mk2 and mk3 lined up, but with the engine mount and rear bracket fitted. Then we measure the differences between the 4 bolt holes holing the mount to the block, this is the only way to know 100% if the engine is moved at all from MK2 to MK3. its all very well measuring the bare subframe, but any difference in position could be made up with a difference in the design of the rear mount bracket.

    its also worth noting the MK3 020 and 02a rear engine mount brackets are different as well, so we need to compare 1.8-2.0 8v mounts & brackets rather than 02a
     
  4. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    I'll check it - it's been nagging me and I'd wondererd if I'd measured it right. Got a daily B4, so will report back.
     
  5. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    Fine, I've got all these and a block if needed to mount it to.

    Have you got the Mk2 stuff?
     
  6. rubjonny

    rubjonny Administrator Admin

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    its in my car atm, so it'll be difficult to measure :lol:
     
  7. LeftcoastTigger Forum Member

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    Andy, apologies, believe you're correct in stating wishbone front pivots are the same distance apart on Passat and MkII/III, it's the four M12 bolts holding subframe to frame which are further apart on the Passat - - my previous 23:22 hrs post, now edited, relied on memory rather than temporally misplaced notes[8(]

    However, I'd be cautious assuming the shaft lengths can be estimated by factoring in wishbone lengths alone, as I suspect the position of the wheel bearing relative to hub/strut, hub/tie rod, and most critically hub/ball joint mounting points change with different hubs, surely why VW changed the wheel rim et despite rim diameters and widths remaining constant, for instance MkII 14x6 "Pirelli" rim @ et38, MkIII 14x6 4-stud steel rim @ et45 (interestingly, MkII BBS RA 15x6 rims are et35 despite a similar tire circumference - - )[:s]

    Chris, I will bench assemble MkII, MkIII 4-stud, and Passat B3 5-stud during the next 48hrs regarding this issue, as queried on another thread (confused, lost it - - )[:s]

    Rubjonny, I can provide MkIII subframe dimensions but cannot be certain which of my engine and tranny mount collection are oem for that crossmember[:s]

    May be 24+ hrs before I can respond
     
  8. Andy947 Forum Addict

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    Way way way back just after i first did the wide track on the MK2, on the other MK2 i had i initially thought i would just bolt up the whole subframe, and use the Thicker Passat ARB straight off as an upgrade on the other car, but when trying it the rear wishbone bolt holes lined up to secure the subframe no probs, but the front subframe securing holes were too wide.
     
  9. Andy947 Forum Addict

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    Left coasttigger, i did a Widetrack MK2 using a passat donor many many years ago. First documented on the forum i think.

    Anyway, the passat uses the exact same hubs, so the shafts, and tie rods and wishbones are all longer to swap over as a complete set.
     
  10. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    Thanks Tigger - that's cleared that up! I've updated post 1.

    Await bench tests eagerly!

    I agree that the wishbone lengths have limitations, and particularly with bodyshell top mount centres differing from Mk2 to 3 and assume Passat also.

    Corrado 8v + 16v vs VR6 top mount measurements would be interesting - I may have something on this.

    Even the driveshafts are not at 90 degrees to the output shaft or horizontal.

    Anyway, it's been quite interesting to go through the whole wide tracking thing, and get some close estimated numbers on to it :thumbup:
     
  11. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    :thumbup: so that's out the equation.

    4-stud Passat you're referring to I assume, not 5? 5 differs etc.
     
  12. rubjonny

    rubjonny Administrator Admin

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    ok this clears a lot up re: the pivot mountings so thats 1 thing sorted out at least. be good to compare mk3 and passat 5 stud bones to confirm the ball joint pickup is in the same place in relation to the pivots, I'd assume this is the case but best to be sure.

    hopefully now we can also confirm the theory that mk3 subframe will change the position of the engine once and for all! if you can get part numbers off the various mounts and brackets you have in stock i should be able to confirm what they are for. only potential issue i can see is worn mounts might be a bit saggy vs new ones?

    Edit: Good point about the strut top measurements, Golf MK2 and Corrado are both 1088mm between the struts (measured to the centre point), MK3 is wider iirc but I dont have the measurement to hand, nor Passat
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2010
  13. LeftcoastTigger Forum Member

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    Andy, aha, that explains why MkII/III and Passat wishbones must describe different arcs (at the bj) as the suspension cycles through full motion - - and, since their strut upper mounts remain fixed, why their dynamic wheel alignment must therefore be different:clap:
     
  14. LeftcoastTigger Forum Member

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    Andy, presumably a B3 Passat but 4 or 5 stud?
     
  15. Andy947 Forum Addict

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    4 Stud passat.

    It was to allow a bolt on upgrade keeping the 4 stud and 280mm Brakes etc.


    I never did measure the distance between the passat top mounts to compare to the Mk2.

    I guess thats the next step - look at the relative strut tops for each setup.
     
  16. rubjonny

    rubjonny Administrator Admin

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    helpfully there are several Passat B3 and B4 subframes, depending on the engine and box:
    357 199 315 N - B3 4 pot manual, B4 low spec engine (assume 4 stud)
    357 199 315 P - B3 4 pot auto, B4 4 pot low spec engine auto
    3A0 199 315 - B3 and B4 6 pot manual, early 6 pot auto
    3A0 199 315 A - B4 late 6 pot auto
    357 199 315 R - B4 4 pot high spec engine (assume 5 stud)
    357 199 315 Q - B4 ABF auto and manual, and higher spec engine (assume 5 stud) auto

    I assume its all the same in terms of wishbone mountings though
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2010
  17. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    [:*:]

    I have some jig diags showing 1080mm, for a Golf Mk2. Any doubts on this one?

    Time to reach for another table!

    |Golf 1|Golf 2|Corrado|Golf 3|Passat Strut top spacing|1068mm|1088mm|1088mm|1116mm|<will measure a car later>
    (Mk1 in there for completeness)
     
  18. rubjonny

    rubjonny Administrator Admin

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    I got the same strut measurement on a corrado jig diagram, and 2 separate MK2 Golf jig diagrams (std MK2 and MK2 syncro)
     
  19. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    Yep, let's go with 1088.
     
  20. LeftcoastTigger Forum Member

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    Andy, MkII 1082mm, Passat B3 2.0 and VR6 both 1112mm, all measured at centre of strut female hex with weight on wheels therefore strut rubber bush/bearing assy. distorted, if at all:clap:
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2010

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