Can't remember the last time you're allowed to 'race' on public roads either! Or, that speed limits don't apply.
Well, I'm up for it, so long as a HOnda Civic Type-R owner is happy enough to let me drive their car on its limits.
Roads around me are national speed limit 60.. and you can obey the speed limits and still have fun and not a 1/4 mile straight in sight http://s543.photobucket.com/albums/gg461/azur508/?action=view¤t=008.flv
Like you say paul, to be truly consistent is the key to the making the 1/4 mile work in this instance, and its getting this that puts me off using it as a valid comparison-nail this element and i'd conceed it starts to make more sense but i still find the procedure as relevant to the real world as the much hyped 0-60 test. Plus, it does only deal with one element of a cars dynamics really. But i don't favour these on-road battles any more as a means of 'proof'. Come to mention it, probably less-so as once you add corners, road knowledge, (dis)respect for life etc then the truth is easily distorted. As an example, i came across and evo 91011fqbazillion on a country lane and he went for it. Obviously he was faster on the straights but he was pitifully slow in the corners. As a result i ended up hanging on to him far more easily than i had any right to and ended up shaming him in to letting me past on a later straight. So my cars faster than an evo, right?? The trouble is, its very difficult to get an even scenario, so i'm happy to take it as it comes and enjoy what i have for what it is. Figures are figures and driving is so much more.
I think road racing translates to: "Who has the most bottle to break the speed limit by the largest amount" or "Who takes the most risks". Obvious features which a track has (any track, not just 1/4 mile): - Cars only go one way round - Run off areas* - Marshalls - Medical facilities nearby * accepted some circuits have little runoff areas in certain places and rather solid guard rails!
Similar thing happened to me at the 'ring in July. http://www.clubgti.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123&page=28&highlight=gt3 My car isn't as quick as a GT3. Is it?
Think you have just about hit the nail on the head Just like your choice in women/clothes/food etc everyone chooses a car they like, that they are happy driving and suits there requirements And everyone is going to drive differently as we aren't all racing car drivers.... so the figures should be taken with a pinch of salt as an indication of what a car can do in a predefined situation with set parameters
Just reminding what the original post was, to try bring back on topic (if desired)!!!!! Detailed list: - Mk1 Golf - 2.0l 16V - KR cam - firm engine mounts - AFR meter or rolling road session, and the patience to mix/match fuel system components to achieve proper fuelling - decent tyres - decent coilovers - remove: bumpers, spare wheel, carpets, door panels, other trim, all but driver's seat, sound insulation, other trim
Ive owned several mk2's and a crx v-tec (mini type-r ). without doubt the best of the bunch was the crx and thats from a vw man too! what it boils down too is this: to beat a standard type-r round the track you will need to spend shed loads of cash and/or strip out your car making it a pig to drive daily in the process. This will compromise the reliability and cost more to run/insure than the type-r. on the other hand the type-r owner will drive to the track with his comfy seats, radio and aircon. maybe get beaten (only just) by your stripped out expensive mk2 tool, then drive home again in perfect airconditioned comfort safe in the knowledge that although he's spent the last 5 hours screaming round at 8000rpm all he needs to do in about 6 months time is an oil and filter... or sell it for what he paid and not narrow his market like you have. or he could just spend the same amount of cash on his car as you and then what you going to do? he had an extra 60bhp more than you to start, a bit less weight, better breaks and better suspension too... my advice, stick a v-tec in it
x2 Kinda have to agree with that! Just for info, what approximate cost are we talking about, for a Civic Type R? I assume we can compare secondhand, etc.
Comparison - Aintree sprint track, a few years ago My 140bhp flywheel Mk1 GTI in standard body trim was 1 sec. slower than a new Civic Type R BUT quicker than an Integra Type R (DC2) ... down to the weights / drivers ! ? Have also taken that Mk1, a Mk2 16v (Koni kit) and an Integra Type R (DC2) over the same Welsh roads and each had it`s own merits - not measured in outright pace but by absolute feel ... fantastic all of them ... so, as beaniegti says: ... I couldn`t agree more
Hmm got to disagree with some of that.The TypeR engines have had there neck rung from the factory so getting more bhp out of them isnt cheap.Not as cheap as sticking an ABF in a MK1 thats for sure. And Vtec is highly over-rated IMO.My good mate has a DC2 Teg and as much as it sounds good when vtec kicks in,its useless low down the revs.And when Vtec does kick in,its not as wild as folk make out to be(the dc2 has the most violent vtec system too). The stats on paper say theyr quick,but out on the road they arent all that.My old heavier,less powerfull 2.0 16v Corsa used to wipe the floor with it(to his amazement).Its the torque that pulls you along the road. BHP sells cars,TORQUE wins races.
theres a knack to driving a v-tec quickly and anyone that only test drives or has a short aquaitance with one wont pick it up. if you're doing it right the v-tec will only kick in once and then you stay there. first you need to basically forget any sence of mechanical sympathy, just except that it wont let go and get on with it. it feels completely alien but once you get used to it you'll be fine. secondly you need to remember if you drop out of the v-tec range (5200+) you're not doing it right, if you need to re-build your revs after a gear change you're only wasting time so keep it planted. finally grow some balls . very important as you will find that the honda shassis will take the corner speed even if your gut tells you it wont. my crx was the best handelling car I have ever owned/driven and I use it as a bench mark for all others. as for the engine having its kneck rung from the factory I disagree, for similar money to tuning a n/a abf you will get simillar results from a n/a v-tec. bolt on turbo kits are as cheap for both cars and yeild simillar results. and the honda will be as/more reliable. thing to remember is the 50+bhp deffecit you will always carry with an abf. and as for the mk1 abf vs civic type-r arguement I think you missed my point. COMFORT!
I do understand about the comfort and if i had the choice id choose the typeR anyday.But this thread is about keeping up/beating a typeR where it matters. And **** who is willing to race in theyr typeR will most certainly know how to keep in Vtec.Itl have ****ed them off that much not going anywhere at low speeds that they dont have a choice but to learn the in gear speeds to keep it in Tec.lol. Keeping both cars N/A,the Honda will still cost a bomb to tune. Theres a local lad who has spent a silly amount of cash on his EP3 to get it to a dyno proven 230bhp,and he got his **** handed to him by a 150bhp stripped out XE Nova at a traffic light grand prix.It was a different story on the dual carriageway tho at 135+ when the Civics 6th gear played a big part in him starting to reel the Nova in,but not enought to get a clear,easy pass.
Have to agree, the integra type r (dc2) is an amazing driver's car to come out of the factory like it did. LSD, superb suspension, lovely recaros, and most of all one of the best (affordable) atmosferic engines out there... You have to keep the revs up, yes, but then that's true for every high performance NA engine, and that's just fun in my book. Was very impressed of the complete package when i had a drive in one. real driver's car (too bad most people i see driving one, don't really get that and ruin it by lowering it to the ground and all kinds of 'tuning') But i find my mk 1 with a 16v is very comparable now, and i enjoyed transplanting the engine, upgrading the suspension and brakes (and will enjoy future mods). It's fun making it faster and faster. Also golfs (especially mk1) just appeal to me more, it's nice having an old golf that goes very well, i really like the way they look too, much nicer than hondas. A CRX is the same thing really, very potent little cars (with the 150 or 160 bhp vtec), but styling-wise i would always prefer a corrado for instance.
Maybe I'm strange but I actually enjoy getting elbow-deep into a really big mechanical project, and trying to make something better than VW themselves (no doubt for cost reasons) ever did. Yes its produced a quick car but its also kept me busy and its been fun and its my hobby. Can't really tinker with a Type R in quite the same way.
dont get me wrong, I do think the honda can be beaten just not on a like for like bassis. every one seems to be talking about stipping out the car, fitting big breaks and tasty suspension then tuning up an abf just to do what the civic will do out ouf the box with aircon on. any fool could do that! the challange is to beat it at its own game In a mk2 you would need about 220bhp, an lsd and a completely re-worked suspension set up to do this and retain a "fatory" car. tbh this thread is like asking whats the best camper vw ever made? the answer is obviously the new T5 because it's readily available, has all mod cons, is reliable, cheap to run etc etc but who would have one over a splitty? Good taste will always win even if it dose it at a slower pace
The Honda Type "R" is a great modern day hot hatch that offers great performance and handling and fun to drive and yes its quicker and more refined than all the early Golf Gti.Personally I cant afford a newer car like a type r but if i could the Gti would be my choice of car.But one thing you do get out of the old golfs that always puts a smile on ya face is when some newer car hot hatch even pulls up at the lights all 8,000 of it and ure sitting there in my case in my 1000 worth of golf and you know whats gonna happen you both make off from the lights full hammer and ok some times but not all the time you may get beaten but even so I bet the guy in the newer car is ****ed off with you always puts a smile on my face you simpley dont get that buzz with a newer car..
That is a serious over-estimation. As I already stated, my old g60 jetta would breeze past type-rs all day long, with a standard PG engine/charger etc (160hp rated, 100k later, prob lots less!). It's all about the area under the curve, & suitable gearing, which a lot of people don't seem to appreciate. As for handling, just chuck a decent set of second hand lowering springs on, with some of the gsf boge turbo shocks & replace all top mounts/bushes etc. Should cost you less than 300 & will make it super go-kart like. Maybe it's that all of the type-r drivers I come across can't drive their cars, or maybe it's those of you who say they're fast aren't getting the best out of your machines. Whatever the case, it's really not that hard to make a golf work, & you really don't need to strip it out etc. All Golf Gtis (when running properly) are quick off the line, & will keep up with most 'normal' stuff upto the legal speed limit . Personally, I don't see what the big fuss is about. S2000s on the other hand, are a completely different matter..! I love that moment!
