New slicks - where to buy and which brand?

Looking to get the tyres sorted for the car soon and was hoping some people could share any of their experience with this?

Thinking Dunlop or Michelin - dont exactly know why but think when I have researched before these seemed to be the better choices.

This is for circuit use so not looking for hillclimb super soft levels but I do not want anything that I will struggle to get the heat into either, especially the rears.

I have driven on the dunlops before, both slicks and wets and was very impressed. Anyone know how these would compare to the Michelins or are they much the same?

Cheers

 

big big big subject. lots of variables. probably key one is track and ambient temp. hope you have deep pockets..

 

Track is Knockhill - so not very abraisive and usually cold.

With those ideal temp generating conditions in mind, any suggestions on brand/supplier Jon?!

 

How long are you races Ali? 20 minutes, also what size are you running?

I use BTCC Dunlop slicks bought part worn for 120 per set. New they are 180ish each. As Jon say's deep pockets are needed if buying new. You will need to drive smoothly to make them last, its easy to 'rag' a set with over driving and kill the shoulders. Use good part worns if you can. I dont think many series run on 15's now most new cars are 17+ these days! So not much about.

Dunlops are the best slicks ive raced on hands down and the wets are good in rain. If its really wet then the hankook wets are awesome and used to pick up a second over the whole field. I keep all 3 types in the lock up then take what i need with me according to the weather.

Also it is possible to run different compounds front to rear. My backs are medium softs and medium on the fronts. Helps when pushing really hard early on. Do you have rolling starts in your series? It makes a big difference. Whatever you use it will take a while to get the rear in. 3-5 laps depending on compound.


But also how do you find it driving on cold slicks? how do you manage your tyre wear and what is you drving style like. This will affect compound choice and this will change again depending on distance. Smooth drivers will make a medium set last 30 minutes and other will need medium hard.

Lots of variables

 

http://www.mrtyremotorsport.co.uk/

Also this chap has some really good offers occasionally http://steve-harknesscompetitiontyres.co.uk/competition-tyres

Last time i spoke to him he had a set of the hankook wets in 15 brand new at half the going rate

 

Mike nailed it above.

New 15 inch dunlop slicks are around 120+ (+vat) each. Part worn is the way to go, but I would want to check every tyre before buying, unless they are cheap. The guy selling may not know what a flat-spot looks like.

 

I remember doing Knockhill mid winter trackday. Absolutely no grip whatsoever using Pirelli RS5's. I have used Avon, Dunlop, Pirelli, Michelin, Yoko's, Hankook, Kumho etc and each have there pro's and cons. I rate Avon slicks, but if they are working properly they get hot and wear fast. This applies to all race tyres
Price is the biggy. I have a shed load of race/rally tyres on rims (100?) each bought with a specific plan in mind, but mostly cos I couldnt resist them, at the price.
What is the competition using?, what is the max width/rolling dia your gear ratios will stand? What brake clearance do you need? How is your car set-up ? How much you do drive on the hairy/ragged edge? How many sets can you carry to an event? Lots of variables..

 

Was hoping you would be along.

Hmmm. Plenty to think about there. I can see this is going to be expensive.

I will buy a new set of slicks and also I will buy a set of wets (will need these at Knockhill) but maybe part worn is a good idea untill I get the car setup as I dont want to ruin a new set while playing about with it.

As you say, I will struggle to find in 15" but even then it will all be to suit 15x7's as cannot think of any series that will run with 8x15.

The races are 10 laps each so more of a sprint race and doubt a medium would go off in that time, a soft maybe would though. I have never really had to manage my tyres before.

There have been quite a few cars with damage in the SMRC with cold tyres at the start and when I was in the Fiesta ST I did struggle with getting heat in the rears but it was a pretty cold day and damp. Very good shout with different compounds fr/rear - did not really think of that.

Maybe medium soft at front, soft at back. 10 lap races, usually cold and damp so I dont want to go to hard on the compound.

The starts are from a standing start and 1st corner entry to Dufus looks mental and often messy, so I am tempted to go softer on the compound so I can just get on with it.

The other thing is that I would rather play it safe and go through a set of softer slicks too early than crash a car I have not driven for 5 years and poured a ***** load of money into by pushing even harder to keep tyre temp in a set of harder slicks.

If I go through them in a couple of meetings and think I can sacrifice some grip, I can change to a harder compound. Traction is going to be an issue also, so I am keen to take any extra grip that is available tbh.

These are for 15x8 rims so will no doubt be more expensive than a 15x7 which was 180 new when I last bought.


Tyre Size--------Pattern-------Rim Width (inch)-------Diam (mm)---Width (mm)----Revs
---------------------------------Permitted---Optimum
200/555R15----Slick/Wet------6.5-8.5--------8.0----------559----------216------------916


What do you think of the tyre size above?

I dont want to go too crazy on the width as the arches have a lot less room in them than they look!

 

I have bought part worn road tyres in the past and have ended up with rubbish and ended up having to buy new. As my old man says "buy cheap, buy twice"

IMHO - Part worns are all well and good if you have a good contact (as Mike probably does) and you get decent examples, but in my mind, there is a reason that they are being sold 2nd hand and that is because they have less performance than another competitors brand new tyres. Hence the reason they have been sold.

I could also be looking for a tyre in my size all day long as it is not a common size, so think that is pretty much ruled out too. Would you agree?

Some points there Jon that I had again not thought about, such as the gearing...

1. Competition are all obviously slicks but iirc are a mix. The Caterhams and Westfields tend to be on Avons, most of the saloon cars are on Dunlops and the remainder run whatever they have managed to get their hands on. I.e. ex Porsche Michelins etc.

2. Not sure how to work that one out?

3. The wheels clear the brakes fine so what effect are the tyres going to have?

4. Its not! That will hopefully come after a bit of testing.

5. Probably more towards a slightly agressive style

6. Will need to be able to carry a least a full set of wet wheels/tyres to the event and would likely take a spare also. The tyre choice will not be decided on this variable as this variable will be changed to suit the tyre choice/needs. Either trailer tyre rack, use of van etc.

Thanks for the responses, this is certainly accelerating the thought process with these things to consider!

 

Thanks for the links btw. A good start.

 

Interesting, and I can only comment from my experience, and its NOT circuit racing. Anyway;
Assuming you are running fwd, I have experience of Duffus on lap 1 in a rallycross heat. Spun in my race mini. Rear tyres too wide, too cheap and too cold. I was young (ish). But it was a monster spin, went round and round and round. Hit the bank at the bottom of the hill. LOL
Standing starts are great, if you have the balls to outbrake/corner people at the 1st corner. My rallycross technique was just to have my hands on the wheel ready for that big opposite lock moment as the rear stepped out. Best way to warm cold rear tyres.
Me, I would be running the smallest radius I can get, lowest gearing.
Softest you can dare. Narrowest on the rear you dare. I would rather do the last 3 laps on gooey tyres than lose half the field in the first two.
Few more variables.
How heavy is the car? Have you got enough brakes for the slicks? Have you got enough engine to overcome the loss from the draggy slicks? Is your car setup for super low profiles or just low profiles? Have you got enough spring rate etc to make best use of slicks? If its damp, are you have slithering around?
Temperature. If its cold, you may not be able to get enough heat into them to make them start working
I am just flagging some of the questions. I dont understand the interactions in all the answers

 

Completely agree on part worns, you need a good source and do have to be very carefull. The ones i get are from Tony @ Touring car spares. Have only done one 25min race and straight from the touring car teams. New slicks are nice I like dunlops.

If you doing standing starts the out lap is the most critical lap of the race for you being FWD. You really need to work hard weaving 50% of the track. A couple of times ive got so much heat into my tyres ive been able to drive round the outside of the pack going into corners. You see some people doing a bit but you need to do it start to finish, it will pay off. I get the back end sliding around through the corners, it works well.

I would use medium front and medium soft rear. As you have 400+bhp going through the front wheels you will over cook the fronts. Also think about running a slightly narrower rear tyre if you going softer at the rear if one is available.

When testing pratice pushing hard on cold tyres its an art from on its own. Go straight out of the pits and go flat out for 4 laps, in that period you will learn a lot about the car and your own drivng. Also it will give you confidence for overtaking and driving hard on the first lap.

As for tyre size you need to do some calculations for rolling radius and see what it does to your gearing. Width wise id go a bit wider if you can. Ideally a 210 front 200 rear. I run a 235/610/17 on the Mk3. There are a few gearbox calculators about where you can input your rpm, tyre, ratios and FD, it works out everything for you.

I used to carry 16 wheels to the track some weekends for double/triple headers.
Some good points from Jon there, he might not know your car that well so more info from you would be good.

Your brakes will be fine for slicks as well as having plenty of power. If you go too soft you will cook the fronts with the plate diff and if your aggressive you will muller them. With slicks you want to be very smooth and precise. Otherwise they will go off and you will end up going backwards or find your self slowing down trying to cool them. Been there done it learned.

What ambient temperatures are you races? Also you must have a basic idea of how you setting the car up chasis wise?

 

Thanks Mike.

Phoned the local tyre guy and he is waiting to hear back from Dunlop on a price but has mentioned the tyre compound choice might not be great as possibly only available in a slightly harder compound like the Fiesta ST's use. Will see what he says tomorrow and might give the company on the earlier link you posted a shout also.

Not sure of ambient temperatures but it can vary quite a lot. I remember the race last April and it was roasting hot but then other days which felt like they were barely above freezing.

How do people find out that kind of thing? Just log it on setup sheets and then look back? If so, no idea! Could ask one of the other competitors about compound choices buit then again, most I know are in much lighter cars like Caterhams.

Good advice on the warming up at the start. Will probably try and be pretty hard on the brakes and try and get some heat through the hubs/rims and hopefully heat up the tyres a little. Thought about trying to alter bias more to rear on warmup laps (2 of) so I am not on cold rears going into dufus and ending up reversing down there!

Probably going to go the same compound all round as I want to be able to switch the tyres front to rear as I do not know how quick the fronts will wear yet, but I suspect will be a lot quicker than the rears. Once I know how much quicker the fronts will deteriorate that the rears I can then start choosing compounds to suit. Same goes for width.

Re setup, I have some ideas in my head but most will be trial and error untill I see what works. Will probably be after some base settings once I get to that stage, then I can tweak from there...

Cheers

 

Good inputs. There is a temp below which a slick will not work. Obviously the lower the ambient , the further the tyre has to heat up to start working. Slicks are a liability below that temp. If its damp, only soft works. Wets are for standing water or rain. Dunlop moulded slicks come in X22 (supersoft) to X03 (hard) I think there are probably 8 compounds between. On a 10 lap race, I would go soft, super soft on the rear. Wider is more drag, more inertia, more difficulty in turning, more rubber to get heat in. I would probably go for narrower than suggested above. 220 or 200 fronts, 185 or 200 rears. If you keep the same rolling diameter, then you can use the softer, narrower rears on the front when damp.
Really, price is all. Tyres are a consumable, expect them to get smaller...

 

I don't think you need to worry too much about getting heat into the rear tyres. Do you?
Think of all the national championships that race at Knockhill (or anywhere that happens to be cold that day) on control slicks that are not super soft. It just takes a bit of managing on the first lap or two I imagine.
.....if you go too soft, you may be replacing them after a couple of races

 

think I stand by what I said. from experience. anybody else?

 

Wow there are some real golden nuggets of info shared in this thread.

Gurds

 

Hoping for more shared thoughts on this...

 

The only time I have driven on slicks was also the first time I had ever been on track.
On a cold late-November day - knockhill equivalent maybe? I managed to get some good heat in the rear tyres and pointing in the right direction all day - and they must have been 5+ year old knackered Dunlops.

I am sure it is going to be a bit hairy for the first lap or two (although you say you get 2 warm-up laps?)... but thats why you go racing isn't it
After 2 laps (+ the two warm up) they will be well up to temperature and will start fading through the race - just like anywhere else.... surely?

I am not that good on the first lap myself. I am usually a bit paranoid that the tyres are up to temp - so you are not the only one

 

My tuppence worth is based on well used Michelin slicks in SB9 compound, which is a medium hard compound as I understand, used on my Golf for trackdays. On first laps very unpredictable, very little feel (spun a few times ), second laps some feeling to the tyres, lap 3 on very good grip, and very controlable. never seemed to overheat just kept on gripping. I had two sets of well used tyres when I aquired my car and these are the tyres the guys recommended for Eurosaloon racing. Believe these are around 200.00 per corner. Same size front and rear, 570/190/15 on G60 steel 6j wheels as I recall. Couldn't say how long they last but I probably got about 40 or 50 miles out of some pretty worn ones.

For sprinting I use Dunlop CR311's in Super soft compound (moulded tarmac rally slicks). These start to go off after a lap or so but you are right on it from the off, they get enough temp in them within 3 or 4 corners and you can drive them hard off the line. I get about 60 to 80 miles out of them from new and they are about 100.00 per corner. I'm told that 'proper slicks' are worth about 1 to 2 seconds on a typical sprint or hillclimb. Think they are 200/580/15's

Going from soft compound A048's you could really feel the difference in the X22 CR311's. Worth 2 to 4 seconds on a typical sprint or hillclimb so a good buy when A048's are probably a similar cost. With full slicks the law of diminishing returns kicks in but 400.00 for 1 to 2 seconds on a Sprint or Hillclimb is probably good value it and I'm hoping to be able to afford a set this year.

As for second hand slicks there is a guy who sells them around here (via ebay, in Llandysul I think) around 20.00 to 40.00 per corner and they probably work well when compared to 'trackday tyres' but they do go off with time and heat cycles (I've had some Dunlop DG01's off him for track days - similar to A048's as I recall). Your probably better off buying fresh tarmac slicks than used full slicks. The carcase construction is heavier on the tarmac slicks than circuit slicks but you can then give them a real hammering over the rumble strips and kerbs. You can run the pressures right down as well but the side walls do suffer