Ultimate 8v's - F3 / Supervee / Judd / Drake / Spiess Engines- Info Request

Discussion in '8-valve' started by drunkenalan, Jul 6, 2009.

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  1. Jon Olds Forum Junkie

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    good stuff..thanks
     
  2. Dr Zook New Member

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    Saw this was missing;

    Dry sump pump (mine), also seen them from other manufacturers with text on the cover e.g. brabham, bertils, judd, spiess and the like...
    [​IMG]

    Intermediate shaft, note the second scroll gear for the pump drive
    [​IMG]

    sump, looks quite simple to make yourself from a steel pan.
    [​IMG]

    Although there are also belt drive setups....

    I believe that this particular type of pump was also used on formula ford (kent series) and nova motors (toyota??? formula atlantic???) but not easy to find info...
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2011
  3. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    Titan make them for the Ford Kent block and they also sell them for the VW. It seems the Ford version came first.
     
  4. Neal H Forum Member

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    I believe that to be correct Chris. It is the same Titan pump as used on the Ford / Lotus twincam (apologies for my Ford ignorance). I have the same unit for my build that came from Bertils before he retired, though the oil pan is cast alloy, not steel.
     
  5. TonyB Paid Member Paid Member

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    Thought I'd drop this in to this old thread (as I liked this one :thumbup:).

    I was nosing around the inter web while having a cup of tea the other day and came across this. Seemed interesting on a few levels. The translation (sort of) was with it.

    The whole feature was detailing how Spiess were moving away from the NSU and VW and now moving on to Ford Fiestas, didn't copy all that bit though:lol:

    [​IMG]


    Spiess-Tuning - Pastures new

    Spiess and NSU, the right guaranteed in recent years, hot group-2-cars at affordable prices. It now has an end. The Schwabe needs a new object and has found it already: Small Fords, the Fiesta

    "When I come, I will be there with the front." Siegfried Spiess, tuning specialist from Stuttgart, and until now a synonym for fast NSU, can allow such pithy sayings. For engines were the jagged Spiess legend on the cylinder head cover has never been weak on the species. And they were mostly immediate success. Last evidence of the coming, seeing and victories: two first places with the Spiess-Power galloping Super VW pilots Helmut Henzler in the debut of this engine in Hockenheim. Spiess for the water-driven units of the VW canoes are a pure matter of prestige. For where mixing Solex tinkerers mountain and racing aka en chemist Dr. Schrick with, can not be missing the Schwabe. In contrast to 99 percent of his colleagues tuner prefers to Spiess for, and camshafts from Schrickscher workmanship or also frequently represented in the Schleicher-Schmiede, and rather relies on Homemade.

    What is good for the engines throttled in the intake seater is a performance enhancer teaches his experience with the Scirocco engines to save the current in the European Championships VW honor. 180 hp the VW specialist currently implemented for the fast sedans, and 170 to 173 horsepower, he conjures up in the super-VW-Herz. Perennial horsepower no less, for the tinkerer who goes every one of his precious engine itself screwed together, quality and stability of the drift rates are still above the quantity and turnover. So he does not frighten shy away from for the 1600 Super VW engines dryly marsh units by Bavarian BMW tuner Alpina order, even though this is expensive, and its Scirocco engines, which does not grant the Sports Act, such plant, with subtle oil pans and prepare selbstentwikkeltem lan suction system on the walking for several hours for the European Touring Car Championship races. 11 000 Mark then has to lie down with a Spiess-Power.....
     
  6. chopperoli Forum Member

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    Nice find, shame about the 'translation' !!
     
  7. G60KG

    G60KG Forum Member

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    could any of these engines or similar systems derived from these engines be run reliably in a track/road car or is it a total no go as they were designed to be rebuilt frequently because of how hard they were run.
     
  8. TonyB Paid Member Paid Member

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    Not really practical for anything but racing in my opinion.

    Firstly they are getting rare and the historic racing racing guys are on the lookout for them. They go for anything from 3,000.00 to 6,000.00 range depending on condition and spec. Anything cheaper is likely to require work.

    The Super Vee's were 1.6ltr's and pretty revvy and piston life would be fairly short I would guess. The F3's were up to 2.0ltr but restricted air so quite specialist and would need a bit of work to get the best out of them once the restrictors are removed.

    Also many parts, especially the later F3 motors, were mostly bespoke and parts very expensive to replace even when they were available and unlikely to find anything on the shelf now!

    That said things like the dry sump systems and the induction systems are useful. I run a Spiess F3 induction system on my hillclimb car to good effect. Probably not much cheaper than an off the shelf Jenvey system if you pay market rates for the parts second hand but if you are lucky and can find one hidden away somewhere they are good value and a bit of history to them as well if you like that sort of thing. Won't fit a Golf without some extensive bulkhead modifications though but that goes with the territory.
     
  9. retrowhore Forum Member

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    Drake stuff:
    drake16vyh1.jpg drakearticlevg8.jpg drake16vbhs3.jpg drake16vazc8.jpg
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2016
  10. retrowhore Forum Member

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    more:
     

    Attached Files:

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  11. Jon Olds Forum Junkie

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    Has anybod had one of these urnning and on the rollers? There is a slight danger of 'rose tinted specs' being applied to any old stuff, assuming just cos someone wrote 192hp in 1982 , it then becomes true. As a friend of the family (now in his eighties, and once a real racing contender) said, b*****hit was happening 30 years ago, and nothing has changed. You'd better believe it..
     
  12. TonyB Paid Member Paid Member

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    Your right Jon, intersting to see one of a Super Vee car or a similar spec car on the rollers. You see figures attributed to Judd of 220bhp for a 1.6 ltr VW motor, that would be 275bhp from a 2.0 ltr 8v non cross flow engine (pro rata), that's in S2000 territory [:s] I wish.

    I've a lot more info from the Spiess write up I posted on the previous page thanks to Hugo (HPR). I'll post it up when I get enough enthusiasm to wrestle with Photobucket :lol:. There is a nice comparison between the GP2 Scirocco's from Spiess, Oettinger and ABT, chassis and running gear etc. Essentially (reading between the lines as it's all in German) they are quoting around 170bhp from a GP2 1.6 ltr VW engine.

    That seems to stack up, say around 212bhp in 2.0 ltr form (pro rata). Given they were running clockwork ignition and injection and there must have been compromises for driveability given that and the developments in engine knowledge etc. over time the current 225>230bhp claims from Berg cup 8v cars seem to be about right.
     
  13. Razzer Forum Member

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    When I ran my 1600cc regularly in the late 80's early nineties it used to make 183bhp consistently on the rolling road at Machtech tuning, with a wet sump set up (series regs) and using a distributor with standard points.
    I was advised the only way to extract more power was to use an electronic ignition system because there was to much points bounce over 7500-8500 rpm. Never bothered,raced it as it was I guess the important thing was that it was in front of any other makes with a 1600cc engine and it usually was, the main downfall was it wrecked cv joints, always carried complete spare drive shafts.
    It will be going back in a mk1 this year, then back on the rollers with a different ignition system but still on mechanical injecction. Will be interesting to see if its performance can be increased.
     
  14. TonyB Paid Member Paid Member

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    Look forward to that Razzer, that works out around 228bhp pro rata up to a 2.0 ltr which is right on the money, even with clockwork ignition:thumbup:. The 1.6 ltr motor are shorter stroke and rev more than the long stroke 2.0 ltr and ultimately (without a turbo) you need revs to make horse power so the smaller engines might always make more bhp per ltr simply by design.

    I'm just interested as it gives me an idea what I can get out of mine. Whilst the are no F3 parts in it the induction is Spiess F3 and inlet the porting follows the Spiess dims. My engine is a chambered head and the F3 Spiess heads were the 1.6 GTi flat style which may have given it an advantage. The Spiess head flowed slightly better on jasons flow bench than my current head set up but did have larger valves. Jason is currently fitting some 42mm inlets and revising the porting to see what we can get out of it. It's at 217bhp at the moment on mapped ignition and injection so we'll see in a few weeks what it all adds up to:thumbup:.

    When are you planning on getting yours up and running?
     
  15. Jon Olds Forum Junkie

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    Really starting to get fired up to build another race 8V 1600. Had better drop down a rallying class to get some use out of it.
     
  16. redturner37 New Member

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    I have a VW 8v motor, alegedly built by Judd to FVee 1600 spec. Is fitted with dry sump system and runs Webber 45s. Purchased a long time ago to fit into a single4 seater. It had been fitted to a Golf. I need to make a decision as to what to do with it. How do I post pictures in the hope that some-one might recognise it.....
     
  17. redturner37 New Member

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    A bit too much for my 75 year old p.c iliterate brain to come to terms with.
     
  18. drunkenalan Paid Member Paid Member

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    ooo thats nice, would like to stumble over one of these one day.

    another variation on the inlet.

    very nice piece of history you have sat there.
     
  19. TonyB Paid Member Paid Member

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    Interesting, but I don't think it's Super Vee as it's an 1800 chambered head. The Super Vee motors were 1600 heron heads, as were the F3 Spiess engines. Obviously got some F3/Super Vee parts, the dry sump system is typical, probably mid 80's, different to the later dry sump pans. Most of the F3 cars had the distributor drives on the end of the cam on the cylinder head where as this is in the standard position, no vacuum advance which is a good sign.

    Probably a mixture of various competition parts adapted on to a later 1800 engine block. Obviously used in a single seater as it has all the hallmarks inc. blocked off water pump and toothed belt drive. Hopefully has some good spec parts inside, need to have a look under the rocker cover and down the ports to check, that will give an idea what is in it.
     
  20. redturner37 New Member

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    It was purchased as a 1600 FVee motor, built by Judd and giving 184 bhp. It was at sometime fitted to a Golf and I also have the VW to Hewland adapter. The sump has been off to check the inside but that is as far as I went. It hasnt been touched in years. My information is that the best FVees/F3s used a sleeved down 1800 block and that is what I believe I have here......
     

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