Winged Sumps ?

Nige, the Ford Puma 1.7 uses a type of winged sump.

 

Rough as a badgers *rse I must admit but as I have an alloy sump and cant weld ally (and my metal welding isn't fantastic ) I did two baffles with trap doors using a windage tray. Cheap and I have had no issues with it.

The hole allows oil flow if on a steep hill or heavy braking.

Might be b*ll*x but its better than spinning a bearing

 

I fitted this beauty to my John Eales Rover V8 powered Ginetta G27

 

I am liking your "must try harder" attitude!

 

Looks very nice if you ask me and good thinking welding to windage tray to resolve ali sump issue

Top marks


Only problem is you need the baffle on the other side of the oil pump to hold oil by the uptake

 

Nige ... a bit more

Quote Originally Posted by jamesa View Post
Nige ... some thinking out loud to see what it brings, abuse probably*
The point of a thread like this is to ask for opinions and listen to the replies.

Quote Originally Posted by jamesa View Post
- Are you reacting to an issue or pre-empting one ?
Some modifications we make are reacting to an issue, others are pre-empting one. That`s what this is, a pre-emptive mod.

Quote Originally Posted by jamesa View Post
- Standard pump ?
YEP. Never had a flow / pressure issue with sufficient oil in the sump.*

Quote Originally Posted by jamesa View Post
- Improved top end breathing after rocker cover modification - catch can level ?
Not an issue. It drains back to the sump anyway so sump volume isn`t lowered.
So you don`t know what carry over of oil you are getting from the engine`s breathing / pressurisation ?

Quote Originally Posted by jamesa View Post
- Oil return rate from head affected ?
Not that I`m aware ?

Quote Originally Posted by jamesa View Post
- Are you going to reduce the sump operating / running level relative to the crank ?
No, I have no clearance issues, the sump is well above the splitter and that doesn`t touch anything, so no benefit.
The benefit of running a lower sump level is even with `simple` baffle and windage plates there is reduced `splash foaming` which reduces the affect on crankcase breathing / pressure and it`s knock on effects. Dipstick levels are set rather conservatively

Quote Originally Posted by jamesa View Post
- Oil circuit remains the same - stored volume increases - heat soak increases ?
Yes, but oil temp is ZERO issue for me
Where are you measuring the oil temperature ?

Quote Originally Posted by jamesa View Post
- How has the turbo conversion affected oil temperature / cooling ?
I have too much cooling. Seriously. I blank off half of my oil cooler and ends of the radiator on cold trackdays ! I added a huge radiator and boxed it in, along with boxing in the oil cooler. That has removed ANY cooling concerns I had.
What oil and water temperature indications do you `aim for` ?

Quote Originally Posted by jamesa View Post
Not too many coats out here but I`ll start looking for one*
Absolutely NO need to do that. The whole point of this thread was to get input BEFORE I did it
Thank you my continuance is in relation to previous experiences and methods employed to address my understanding of same, albeit not the same engine / other configuration (i.e. turbo and slicks) as yours

 

Yup it was one of those "lets just get it done and see if it works" days. lol

The old MIG was playing up with oxidised wire and sticky feed and ran out of gas.

Normally I sort of do ok when building cars



Found more piccies of the Rover V8 sump - second one shows one of the trap doors

 

Generally FWD cars can be serviced by simple baffles, don't underestimate the benefits of a good windage tray while you are at it though, air separation and channel ing towards the pickup

 

Indeed, the last thing you want is a crank and rods slamming around in the oil... ...making it to foam / and it cost power too

Here a sump for 06* type engines , its as simple as this and a wingdage tray to make it work...

 

One thing to note with the Moroso sump, and all of them actually is that the bottom of the sump is parallel to the ground and NOT the mounting face.

This would make the extension on the Moroso sump point up ever so slightly and help keep the pickup pipe submerged in oil.

To investigate a bit further, I got the measuring jug out with the sump. Yes, back in my new lab, THE KITCHEN!! lol



This is an ABF sump filled with 4.5L of water. As you can see the level of fluid doesn't follow the mounting face as the engine sits at an angle. Thing to note is the angled section at the front of the sump which would drastically reduce oil volume in the area exactly where Moroso added an extension.



Add a windage tray to this and you can see a little fluid pass above into the crank area but given a running engine will displace some oil during running and displace a lot of oil at high rpm, I can't see this being an issue.



Add an extra 0.5L taking the total to 5L and the sump still holds all the oil quite happily. Remember the oil filter will take some of the oil and if you have an oil cooler, that will take some too.

Here is what 5L looks like.



For reference, this is roughly where the pickup sits.



Gurds

 

That makes sense. The pick up is in the deepest part of the 'Vee' part no?

 

Yes, but that's not a 'Vee'. Look at the water and you can see the deepest fluid level is at the back of the sump by the drain plug.

Gurds

 

If the wing extended forward but was only say 50mm from bottom of sump to top of the wing the oil couldn't drain away from the pickup as it couldn't be dis placed ? Slosh up the front of the sump ? I think you'd have to have your front and rear baffles coming together a lot to try to contain the extra oil ? You could have a wing at the back but again the issues are with keeping the extra oil contained around the pickup not sloshing upto the crank ?

Thoughts ?

 

Just saw you added pictures of where it sits. Thanks

 

Looking at the mock up from Gurds and HPRs comments above, it should not be hard to make up something simple and effective, if this has not been already done in Nige's case.
Also Gurdip's pictures indicated why track novices like me could get away with the stock ally sump with no additional baffles.

 

I think a 4-way trapdoor box would be needed around the pickup if the sump was extended forward and backward. Maybe just a 3-way box if the back of the sump was untouched. I don't think the rear needs extending.

Gurds

 

The trouble with a trapdoor on a wing is it stops the oil going into it therefore giving a higher oil level than needed , wings are to add extra oil volume rather than depth ?
A front wing gives extra oil volume by the pickup but it needs to be kept in that area to stop it sloshing about to much .

 

Yes and it would need a means to fill. Firstly the trapdoors don't completely seal so would let oil seep in during fill. Also the Moroso one has a path in as can be seen to the left of the trap door here:



Gurds

 

Gurds, I have added a sketch of the sumps with an oil level, based on the mock up you did. Hopefully it illustrates what you were saying about the Moroso sump a bit clearer. I have compared this with a similar stock oil pan.



The pick up from these illustrations and your pictures looks to be quite deeply immersed in the oil and it would take some doing to slush the oil to cause starvation. Surely in a std and deeper ABF ally sump, some baffling and lower pickup as suggested by HPR + the 1.9TDI 'windage tray', would substantially reduce any risk even for the most aggressive trackday driver?