1.9 16v G60 on MegaSquirt :: RR result 6/7/10 - Now a 24v VR6 25/10/21

Nah, I did call him this morning but as your Mum is up he didn't answer, no doubt it will be tomorrow. I did 80 running in miles today, all good and no issues really.

Leaning towards an Adaptronic e1280s ECU. Aussie system but seems to tick all the boxes I want, need to do some serious reading over the next few weeks so I can get up to speed on the aftermarket management options.

Build thread is easy, click the link in my sig

 

On Friday the big day finally came. The car finally went onto a rolling road for a mapping session, and I'm really pleased with how it went.

The chosen venue was BTEC Racing. This company is local to me in Oxfordshire (about thirty or forty minutes from where I live). They have a Dastek 4WD rolling road.







The car was initially put through a run to see how it was performing prior to any mapping. So far, the car had only ever been road tuned (as reported a few posts up) and I really wasn't expecting the BHP/torque plots to look very pretty at all, or that it would produce much more power than a standard GTI. To safeguard against detonation, the rolling road operator, Andrew, fitted an additional Bosch non-resonant knock sensor to the head, connected to a "Knock Box" headphone amplifier which he monitored at all times (similar to my knock headphone amplifier that my mate and I had success with before).

On the first run the car produced virtually bang-on 200BHP. Andrew said that he could see the fuelling / AFRs indicated by their own equipment (and mine) showed that the fuel mapping was obviously pretty close already, and there wouldn't be much more to gain that day. And the reason for this was because my intercooler, which is a temporary arrangement (it's the little one from my G60 Syncro, which has air-con) could be better described as an "interheater". I knew this arrangement was crap, but I never realised how poor it would be and now feel stupid for it! It has virtually zero airflow over it (because I provided no ducting) and the inlet temperatures are far too high. During a run we saw the IAT nudge 60 degrees C, which is pretty pants. We took the headlamp out for what it was worth.

We discussed the intercooler and he expressed his opinion that it might be more worthwhile doing the mapping session when I have a better FMIC in place. However, I decided to continue with it anyway just because I wanted to improve what I have now as much as possible to improve driveability, and really just for the experience of it.

We cracked on with calibration of the VE table. The engine is held at given RPMs (to match the chosen RPM points in the VE table) and the RR loading is changed sequentially so that each column of VE bins can be calibrated in sequence. We found that the top end of the fuel map was pretty spot-on but found that it could do with a little more fuel down between around 1,500 and 3000rpm. After this was done, he suggested that the driveability of the car should be much improved now, and indeed it certainly was when I drove it afterwards.

We looked at the spark timing map and decided that it already 'looked' sensible, and that it should probably be left alone until I have a better intercooler, at which point we can dial in more advance.

A second RR run was done which shows the improvements made down the lower end.


Run 1 - initial test using the road-tuned map I arrived with.
Run 2 - after VE map calibration on the RR.



So in all I'm quite chuffed with this. I know it's not massive power for a 16V G60 (more power can be made with an 8V G60) but I know it's going to improve a lot when I fit the G60 FMIC that I have waiting in the garage. Also, to be quite honest, I find the car to be pretty damn fast enough as it is.

 

Excellent Trev. Should be great with the FMIC. Amazing seeing the effect of poor inlet temps on power output. Get it fitted!!

 

Will be very interesting to see the difference once the improved intercooler is fitted

 

Trevor your road calibration was pretty good. Glad to to see it is running.
What boost pressure was generated with the 16v head.

 

Thanks gents.

Ed, the greatest MAP I see logged from MS is 160kPa; and the dashboard gauge I have agrees with this (it indicates just under 10psi / ~65kPa) so it looks like with the 16V head I'm pushing 0.6bar with what I think is a 68mm pulley.

My mate Alan did well with the road mapping in the passenger seat. I said to him earlier that he should be chuffed to get a compliment from Toyotec for it :-)

There's all sorts of other bits of useful information I could put here but I'll do it when I have more time tomorrow. I'll post logs and MSQs as well.

One particular thing that interests me is that the wife's KE-Jet 9A Corrado (Motronic?) seems to entirely use spark 'scatter' to control idle, and hold the idle properly even when PAS is operated. I have done the same thing on my MS configuration (I have 10 degrees normally at idle RPM, but I have 30 degrees in several bins of the very first spark column). I found that this does a far better job of maintaining idle even when PAS is operated, than I could ever achieve using closed-loop ISCV control. It just works, and no more time spent trying to fine tune PID settings to eliminate hunting. Now I just use the ISCV in open-loop for warmup! The only thing I'm unsure of is whether it's possible to make the ISCV snap fully shut when you're on boost during warmup. I need to ensure I'm not losing any boost via the valve.

Trev

 

Good to finally see some hard numbers from this build Trev. On a stock digi managment the ISCV does motor to closed under WoT conditions, so it would be good to replicate this.

I assume you get the ISCV to maintain a closed position once warmed up as the 'off' position fails to a point that still allows some air through.

I have gone for adaptronic ECU, just waiting on some plugs and pins so I can wire it up and then time to get mapping.

 

Hi Yan,

Yep, with the open-loop ISV calibration I have it so that the valve sits at 25ish % duty cycle when the engine is fully warm. It is indeed the type of Digifant ISCV that actually opens up again at 0% duty (presumably for 'limp home'). I did some bench testing and found it to be fully closed at 25% just as commonly believed. So actually, it shouldn't be leaking anything when the engine is fully warm. I'll check though :-)

It's a shame that the 29Y4 code only has the option to make the valve sit at a chosen 'closed' duty when above idle in closed loop mode. In open-loop mode I think you can't specify this; I think it just slides between the two duty cycles as the engine warms up. So when the engine is still warming up you can't have the valve go fully shut if you go on boost. Could do a small modification to the code if this is an issue.

Trev

 

Just some more random pictures I forgot to post before.

A few weeks ago I fitted a chavtastic boost gauge off eBay. It's not bad actually; it's a stepper-motor gauge that was 30ish or 40ish, can't remember. Before fitting I completed the loom into a neat factory-style item that neatly plugs into the fusebox, 'OEM' style; I just cannot stand any sort of 'splicing' or such bodgery with wiring.



Dashboard bling innit!



A couple of hundred quid spent at the stealers for this lot - and that's with some decent discount:







Here's something a few might find useful. I discovered that the fusebox bracket would no longer fit in place next to my Corrado hydraulic pedal box. I had never heard of anyone else having this problem until I asked about this on the forum a month or two ago. It seems that a lot of people don't have this problem when they do the conversion, because earlier hydraulic pedal boxes have a narrower framework that doesn't interfere with the bracket; the later pedal box however is wider. You can see the difference if you get a chance to compare them. Anyway, I found that very carefully cutting away at the bracket like this makes it fit properly, yet still keeping it quite rigid without needing to weld it.



Some random top view:

 

bah i want your dashboard so much. Really coming along now Trev. Shamefully its in the wrong shell, but hey haha.

 

Cheers Ben, yeah agree about it being time for it to go into the Syncro. I'm thinking that could be quite soon now.

Here's the lastest MSQ and logs for MS1Extra (029Y4 firmware):

Final MSQ file from the BTEC RR session.

Short datalog taken during the final rolling road run that produced the "Run 2" graph.

Log taken of drive home.

In the drive home log you get to see where I had to wait for sodding ages in a queue in Burford, in the blazing hot weather. Not a fun thing to do in a car that you're still trying to get fully comfortable using on the road. Watch how the IAT soaks upwards...

 

Does anyone have any rolling road plots from a 16V G60 for comparison?

 

Not with me now.
But there is one 16v G60 ex VWM engine in a Rallye that is on the same system as yours that I stopped at 220PS and 230lbft due to injectors that were too small. The charger at the time was backing up to 12psi in the manifold and based on the crank to charger gearing, I could not pass 6600rpm on the motor. This has been since changed to a BBM charger, good for 8000rpm and 440cc jobs. Base road cal being competed and should be hitting the rolls soon.

 

That's interesting Ed. What's the basic engine specification of the VWM engine (block, rods, etc.)?

Before the engine goes into the other chassis I think I'm going to do some degree of a rebuild. The main reason for this is because I once discovered that the machine shop had not cleaned the block very well after the machine work, and I was stupid enough to assemble it all without properly cleaning the oilways for swarf. A while later, I realise lots of swarf is in the sump. Obviously I fully cleaned out the sump, and changed the oil and filter several times since. But I have a nagging desire to take it all to bits, clean it out and check it over fully; and change the main bearings at the very least, and basically just check that all the journals, etc. still look okay.

Also I originally didn't get the intermediate crank bearings replaced, and I'm wondering if I can do that without a full stripdown of the block (I recall Dave2227 can advise on a way of doing it). I hope they're still available from C&R.

Any other suggestions for engine internal upgrades would be appreciated. The specification at the moment is:

- KR block and head. Bored to 83mm, with JE low compression pistons.
- Standard KR rods.
- KR crank.
- ARP rod and head fasteners.
- KS bearings from GSF (NOT with the crap single-piece crank bearing).

I don't want to go silly; I think I'm quite happy with the sort of power I'm expecting to get out of it and reliability is very, very important.

I'd appreciate suggestions for what block / crank / rod combination I could consider switching to, while retaining my same JE pistons, in order to get more displacement or perhaps better engine characteristics in some other way. I've heard conflicting opinions on whether you really do get much benefit from pairing a 2L with the G60; apparently the JD 16V G60s were always 1.9...?

Trev

 

I'm thinking that I may have to part with this MK2 shell once the engine comes out and goes into the Syncro. Really pains me to consider getting rid. It's a rather tatty shell on top but has had lots done. Am I likely to have any interest in a shell? Would hate to scrap it.

 

good to see it all working trev!

I have seen the rallye eddie speaks of the BBM charger sounds mental and the car is beautiful!! im sure he said it was an original G60 16v engine... altho eddie would need to confirm.

as for the shell if its solid and just missing and engine and a few bits im sure it would sell..

RR result 6/7, thats tomorrow isnt it?

 

Interesting that you have had a swarf problem as well Trev.

My run down to BVF last weekend was terrible with the coolant cap blowing out on the M6 sat in traffic and the diagnosis of no 4 not running at idle (causing the other 3 to run lean and then overheat the block)

On stripping it down at DG Autotech yesterday there was some swarf in the sump oil residue despite the engine having only done 600 miles and it's had 4 oil changes in that period. The bore damage with the pistons dropped it worse on No 4, the closest to the oil pump, and improves through 3-1 in that order.

What worse is the new conrod bearing shells are in a right state in the same sequence and the crankshaft bearing shells will no doubt be the same, so that's 400 on a rebuild and some serious bore honing to be carried out.

I was planning on ABF'ing it anyway as all the sensors for aftermarket management are already in the block so now might well be time to take the plunge.

 

Oops, you're right Alan - don't know where my head was with that date!

Yan - that's interesting. Well, I don't really know if any long term damage has been caused at this stage. When I discovered the swarf well over a year ago, I did remove a couple of the big end caps to look at the bearings, and they looked reasonably okay, although a few guys on here suggested that they might look a little too worn already for new bearings. On the other hand, some poeple said they looked fine.

Are you certain that the swarf you found is residue from the machine shop work that you didn't manage to clean out? Is it possible that it's caused by an engine problem?

When I do rebuild it, I could go 9A as I have a complete 9A engine, but I'm not sure. Might just put that 9A into the oak shell, so it can be kept or sold as a complete MK2.

 

great thread Trev, when do you think you will convert the engine into the syncro shell?
do you have the full G60 front mount intercooler to use this time?

if you are going to strip it again wont it be worth putting the 9A in and then you know it cant be improved?

 

Looking at the particle size of the swarf it does appear to be more a case of build debris rather than an indication of a problem with tolerances elsewhere on the engine. The block turns over nicely by hand with all the plugs out so that points a fully functional bottom end.

I think the advantage of the ABF over the 9A is that all the required pick-ups for aftermarket managment are already present, coilpack, crankposition sensor, cam position sensor, 2 x knock etc. This means you get to keep it a little more OE and it's easier to replace sensors and given they are fitted in the factory locations they should also be more durable.

After doing some digging I managed to locate some German made bearing suppliers in the US that are a lot cheaper than VW, so for now it's looking like a bearing replacement and some serious honing with an inspection of the piston rings.