1.9 16v G60 on MegaSquirt :: RR result 6/7/10 - Now a 24v VR6 25/10/21

At the high RPM, high MAP end of the fuel table, the AFRs you see need to be quite rich. I'd need to go and check my logs, but I think we might have mapped it to achieve something like 11 or 12:1 at the extreme end of the table.

Therefore I think that seeing 14.0:1 at WOT, even when keeping below 4K rpm, is quite dangerous.

What I'll do for you is I'll shortly do a screen shot of a datalog in MegaLogViewer to show how my AFR behaves as I work through the gears.

With regards to MegaSquirt, it sounds like your guy at Jabba could probably get this mapped properly for you if you chuck him a few hundred quid, and then your car's ready to go and you can just use it. You're already more than halfway there with Digifant. So at this stage I'd probably suggest MegaSquirt only if you have a desire to be able to do tuning or learn ECU operation yourself.

 

Also Ade, what exactly is the spec of your engine? Doing the Nm / foot-pounds conversion I see that the torque you have at the high end is pretty much what I have at the high end, but my torque starts out being much lower at the low RPM end. Yours on the other hand is really flat. So your car must feel a hell of a lot more responsive to drive compared to mine. Are there any particular engine features you think have contributed to that? Cams?

EDIT: Actually, looking at the graphs again, the torque curves between us aren't too far off. Mine looks less flat because of the way the torque axis is scaled I think. I would look forward to seeing the graphs from your engine now that you have 11psi :-)

 

Hi Trev,
Engine is follows:
8v Rallye G60 bottom end over bored to 1.9 with racing forged pistons (BBM supplied).
standard crank,
Polished and ported Man in the shed 16v head with standard cams,
Jabba stage 4 charger with 68mm pulley,
Radtec rad and intercooler,
Stainless four branch into a Jetex exhaust.

It is very responsive, and above 4k it gets frantic !! Will be interesting to see what it is like when the charger is run in and the map is sorted.

I have a desire to be able to monitor and tweak the ECU, what I don't want to do is spend ages trying to make something work with the car, that is what is attracting me towards the Emerald ECU, they supply a basic map and sensors required and then if required a rolling road setup. I am not scared of the technology at all, I use to develop software for real time power system relays - little rusty now though, but you never forget the basics :-) Off to read up about Megasquirt !!

Would be interested in seeing the plot.

Will be giving Jabba a call to see what they say on Monday...

 

Also been having a look around the EFIExtra site, pretty comprehensive.

The daughter board that you built for the ISV, is that still required ?

MegaSquirt does seem a bit of a mine field of information !!

Going to cost both systems out and go from there I think

 

You could always build the megasquirt yourself to further reduce costs. You would only need ms1 V3 board with the extra code.

 

Thanks for the engine spec, Ade. We're running pretty similar setups. Are your BBM pistons the ones that retain the 8.0:1 ratio? If so then it's similar to mine (8.2ish) and this is really good for comparison and gives me confidence I can get quite a bit more out of my engine, perhaps with head work and definitely with a proper intercooler!

I'm tempted by the idea of a man in the shed head.

To be honest there's no absolute need for it. You can still control the ISV straight from MS1, but to achieve fine enough ISV step resolution you need to run the valve at a low frequency, which makes it buzz loudly because the solenoid inside is basically banging back and forth. This isn't correct operation for the Bosch ISV, but it still achieves the desired end result and many people are happy with it like that. The board I made basically copies the ISV drive circuit from the Digifant 1 ECU. The ISV is very nice and quiet, just like when driven from DF; and runs at high frequency and gives fine stepping resolution. I did it because I got far too anal and geeky about driving the ISV exactly as DF does!

I reckon you could also get good results by running the valve at high frequency straight from MS1 but with an air restrictor on the ISV.

If you use MS2 then apparently its ISV output allows much finer duty cycle resolution anyway, so I understand you can run the valve at its proper high frequency and have fine control over it.

Funnily enough my ISV is only used for warmup now. I gave up on running it closed-loop and I just use idle spark scatter instead.

 

Any up dates mate?

 

The car recently came off the road. I'm now going to put it into the Syncro. And it has to be done before November when the sprog arrives!

 

A mini Trev, congrats!!!

 

Hello Trev!, my 1.8 16v G60 with the Stage 4 charger and 65mm pulley was hitting 15psig at 2200 rpm.

I used the 16v ISV as i could never get good results with the G60 one.

One idea with the ISV is to plumb it`s inlet to a pipe after the supercharger outlet, that way even if it isn`t completely closed you will never blead boost out of the system.

I`ve dug all my software off my old laptop, in readiness to get mine back on the road this year, if you want me to e-mail you my custom idle code to have look at you can have it (wouldn`t recommend using the .s19 as it`s very specific to my car). I use ignition timing and ISV control to give good idle even with the lumpy cams.

 

Keith glad to see you back.

If you bring it out in time,a group of us plan a G60 dyno testing day featuring 8v, 16v and 20v G60 engines. Should be interesting

 

Can other charger types be involved :-)

I reckon I am about 3 weeks away from Lysholm power !!
Especially if this cold weather goes away.

 

Hello, sounds like fun!.

Depends on how much work it takes to get it back up and running, will be a sunday only project I would have thought, going to lay the GTO up for a bit and give it some much needed attention.

Where abouts you planning to do the dyno?.

Always fancied a Lysholm twin screw charger, but the G60 has always been reliable for me.

 

GTOs... long time I have seen or driven one of those...

Dyno would be where I conduct most of my experiments in S. London @ Garage Streamline.

 

Great thread, ive just read through the whole lot! I have been contemplating a 16VG60 engine build for years and aquiring parts slowly but not really been in a position to crack on with it due to break-ups, moving house etc etc. Did the G60 rolling road day ever happen kieth? If so any plans to do another?. Yanards, ade and trev, how are your engines coming along?.
Ive got most of the parts i need and im clearing a space in my dads garage to assemble the block and head. Im using a KR block with standard pistons and stacked gaskets and will be running digi management to start with. I have a BBM intergration kit so will be relocating the alternator to the back of the block and its all going into a mk1 golf. My concerns at the moment are getting the block breathing properly and where to mount a knock sensor, any thoughts?.

 

Hi mate,
Took mine on the Mk1 Owners Club German road trip, covered 1550 miles in four days !!
She went well except for a water pump pulley bearing failure, had to get a pump and fix her in Germany, that is when you realise having the charger in place and a very tight engine bay is a pain I the rear !!

Mine is still using oil, it burns it but does not smoke. I suspect the overbore was given too much clearance and it is going past the rings. Going to pull it out this winter and find out. I have another 1H block to replace the current one.

In the lessons learnt section:
(1) Make a proper crank breather on the front of the 8V block, the opening for a mechanical fuel pump is ok but it does have a cam flicking behind it.
(2) Get a BBM cap tensioner do that you can get the belt tensioner just right.
(3) Realise that the engine mount interferes with the BBM main alternater mount - lots of mods required to it.
(4) Get a G60 tensioner compressor, there is a guy on Edition 38 that sells them - superb.
(5) Don't even consider Digifant, it will always be a compromise.
(6) Don't buy the BBM chip, it is for 92 RON fuel.
(7) Don't use the New Beetle breather, the pressure is too much and it will fill with oil.

I hope get it built up soon !!

 

Hi there, sounds like your starting to enjoy the engine then! thats good going in four days!. I have a 16V block and not totally sure what im going to do about the breathing yet. It seems like i might have to do something where the rear charger bracket would mount. I was hopeing to get away with at least relocating the alternator to the back of the block but i remember you saying you had issues with this. Is yours now mounted at the front? If so was did this not interfere with the outlet from your charger?. Ill be getting one of those tensioner tools and looking into the bbm cap tensioner, thanks. I was hopeing to get away with digi, ive heard a few people have successfully set it up.

 

You could run without the rear charger bracket at all - I did for a while without issue. I then decided to modify the rear bracket to incorporate a breather pipe in it as it sits over the hole in the block I used for the breather.
The lysholm is supported at the rear differently so I made a breather take off that sits underneath it.

You must use the breather off the front of the block, anywhere else is just a waste of effort as the crank pressure will blow oil out of it.

My alternator is at the back of the engine as per the BBM Limited kit - to achieve this the BBM bracket had to be modified to clear the MK1 engine mount. I have also braced the alternator with another home made bracket (bolts to the end of the alternator and the cylinder head) as it was flexing a little too much for my liking. I had to ditch the mk1 brakes and go for a pedal box setup as the alternator kept hitting the brake relay box when giving the engine some - still not totally happy with this setup without any servo. I have bought a dual remote servo and a Wilwood 280mm setup that will be going on this winter...

I had three trips to Jabbasport to get it running on Digifant - the problem is that the Digifant is now old technology and requires a piggy back emulator to set it up, once the map is created it is then blown into an EPROM and fitted in the ECU, so this makes it difficult to iron out issues when running on the car as the diagnostics are limited. Also as this is a hack not all areas of the setup are fully understood outside the mapping - for example the knock sensor had to be turned off completely as it was over fuelling when trying to over correct. So I ended up with a car that had a poor idle from cold, ran well but was very thirsty due to digifants inability to control to injector pulse widths finely enough - everything was just a compromise to fit around the old technology. So I bit the bullet and went with Emerald, idle is superb, mpg on a run rose from 22 to 30 and it made 20 bhp more :-)

 

Sounds like modifying the rear charger bracket is the way to go. When you were having problems with the alternator clashing with the brake linkage what engine mounts did you have in? Is there any chance that they were contributing to the problem? I dont like the idea of losing my brake servo either. Where will you mount your new servo?. Do you have a hyrdaulic clutch? If so what set-up are you using for that?.
Ill have a look into emerald and megasquirt i think as it does sound like the way to go for future uprades and modifications. Did you wire it in yourself?. Cheers.

 

I have the Just Caddys mounts, the drivers side is standard MK1 - I am not sure that you could push the engine any further forward, but you will be amazed how much the engine will tilt when under load, the worse time is when pulling away, especially if you do not get any revs on - when you install the engine before you put the rear/front mounts on, make sure that the engine clears the brake relay.

The BBM kit was designed for left hand drive cars :-)

The new servo will go under the dash - I picked up one of these a couple of years ago, just never got around to fitting it - http://www.s-v-c.co.uk/product/dual-remote-servo/
It gives nearly 2:1 and combined with the larger discs and 4 pots should do the job.

I have the pedal box off the guy on Edition 38 - mickey marrows - it is based on the Autocavan one - Yes clutch is hydraulic.

Yes I wired the Emerald in myself, ditched all the wires in the engine bay back to the fuse box and wired new (Emerald have a full loom option that I went for).
I also went for a toothed wheel on the crank pulley with sensor and therefore ditched the distributor - and use a Ford 1st Gen coil pack with Magnecor leads.
The ISV is plumbed in and is essential to get a good idle from cold - especially with the drag that the supercharger gives.