Chris, Im looking to keep this in( see pic below) instead of a bar between the A pillars due to so much being mounted to it. Its nearly as good as a bar and is directly bolted to the chassis either side. When the bars go from the A pillar uprights to the friont turrets im planning to weld the tops of the tubes to this anyway. The centre bar you questioned which runs from the front strut cross brace was going to attach to the chassis then on to the front of the factory brace between the A pillars. Are MSA very rigid on this or are you aloud to add your own extras which dont really change the generally design structure of the car. The cage man thinks this brace is as good as a straight bar as well. And for the hassle of fabing up all the mounts and bracket to attach the steering rack and clutch etc its better just to keep it in. I tend to agree on this. Also intend to attach this to the front chassis under the windscreen as well. It will have a straight behind the B pillars for strength and also harness mounting. It will also have one on the floor at the bottom of the B pillars that will then attach to the transmission tunnel. Mainly as the metal is so thin and to add rigidity to the floor pan. The kink in the B pillars is a design feature. CC do this and also the Core kit i have from them has this in On CC's website Also if you look at the A4 STC rear cage it has the same This pic is my main bassis on the rear set up So was planning on some thing the same as this. Do you think i need a X in the back C pillars and between B pillars. I was thinking Just one diagonal on each coming down from the drivers side. ?? FIA implications etc and my bar tacked in. You can just see it on there. I know what you mean about taking out bars for lightness. I would agree on a MK1 or 2 where weight is an issue. But on this project its all about the chassis being able to handle 500bhp and 600lbs of torque. Without twisting the chassis, maintaining chassis geometry mid corner when all hell breaks loose when the gas peddle is planted. I thought the extra A pillar bars was a good idea, and got the idea from the Seat's we looked at, at the lock up. I have a few pics on my laptop of Rhys Lloyds MK2 cupra i raced again last year in the WSCC. Also i intend to do something like this for side impact protection Also because it looks spot on
The A-pillar bar is definitely good to have. I would guess it partly got introduced as screen rakes have got shallower and shallower. On the OEM dash reinforcement, I've got a gut feel that if you come in to that from the strut brace with tube, the scrutineers might have an issue. The bars are effectively non-continuous, inwards, and aren't anchored back to cage tube. Forces are left going laterally towards it... dunno, just a gut feel with nothing to refer to. If you keep the OEM piece, I'd avoid attaching anything to it at all, tbh. I see what you mean about the B-pillar bend - indeed. In theory it's fine then, but I'd still be nervy! It doesn't correspond with an MSA diagram (Drawings 3, 5 & 6) - these are T45 FIA-certificated cages being used as design references, which yours won't be, and the scrutineers could get funny about it - which wouldn't be good after all this work. Have a quick look at the MSA safety chapter and ensure you're designing off the basic recommended MSA diagrams. I'm not sure if you recall but there was a Mk2 Golf Championship car with an A-pillar tube factory kink, half way down, at Brands in '07. The scrutineers were starting to question it, when they were told it was FIA Certificated. At that point, they walked away (but still could have insisted on the certificate). I suspect if it hadn't been FIA approved, they'd have started pointing to MSA diagrams, maintained it didn't comply, and not let the car race in 2008. Definitely needs research, just to be 100% I would try to put one bar at least diagonally on the B=>B (drawing 6, see your Mk3), if not the full criss cross. Then you could end up with 3 criss-crosses: B, B=>C diagonals and chassis pick up diagonals. I would say that's then way too much - have a single main B=>C diagonal if you keep the rest. On the weight, since it's CDS, and not T45 (which all those Tourers will be), I'd still have hallf an eye on it, since it will build up if you let it. If you run a tube across the tunnel, tag it into the floor, or the rear seat squab area - just because you can.
just for reference. http://www.msauk.org/uploadedfiles/msa_forms/bluebooks/10/160-195 Competitor Safety.pdf
CC supply the Core kit with the bend in it. Its not as much as the Touring cars but still a bend/kink !!! So will give them a call tomorrow just to see whats what. With the Factory cross brace i will fix it to the shell itself to make if fully weld in and not to the cage. But does it need a bar between the cage then ?? If i could fix the cage to it then id say no. I agree lateral impact there, but if cage is fitted to chassis there and the factory brace is welded to chassis it should be ok. Is there a limit to how many places you can tack/weld the cage to chassis? Can you mix T45 with CDS ?? Ie main hoops Core CC kit in CDS then all the extras in T45. I will have all these convos with my Cage man on saturday when i see him. He is tacking in the cage in that i have then we are discussing everything elses. But good to mull things over on here.
Yes same base model engine etc. But looks like its had a widebody conversion. The American are Big on the S4. As they didnt get the RS4 so lots of tunning goodies for them
Cool - don't alter it, and it'll be fine. A cage dash cross brace is optional (see MSA diags). Be on the safe side and don't make the OEM cross brace part of a cage structure. Only individual race regs. No - you can't put any T45 near it, without getting the whole lot certificated/MSA approved. It costs money and if you did it, you'd then automatically make the whole lot from T45.
Just for interest on this topic T45 Initially used only for aerospace applications, T45 has for a while now been used in the manufacture of roll cages. The advantage of T45 is that it has a tensile strength of approximately twice that of the standard Cold Drawn Seamless tube (CDS). Due to its high tensile strength we can manufacture the roll cage using tubing of the same diameter but of a thinner gauge (wall thickness). As a guide this equates to a weight saving of approximately 0.5 kg per metre of tubing or 10 - 15% of the total roll cage weight when compared to CDS. However this does come at a cost, as a roll cage manufactured in T45 is substantially more expensive to purchase than the same in CDS and therefore only really required by competitors competing at the higher end of the motor sport spectrum
So looks like an extra 7kgs in weight heavier. But stronger overall, i think the CDS will be fine. Would the touring car cages be made of T45 back in the 90's ??
In relation to the overall spend, and competitiveness of it, virtually guaranteed. There was some thin diameter stuff aswell, criss-crosses on the floorpans - which is just never seen normally: http://www.clubgti.com/forum/showthread.php?t=199604
Yeah, thats what I was meaning. That fuel setup is something else! Just doing mine tonight but it is a bit more basic than that!
Just a quick update We have revised the cage design quite a bit, the man roll over B-B pillar is now more upright even tho the cage we had is part of the certified cage that CC do. We have now gone for a bar accross the dash instead, rather than as well as the factory one with all the steering columb and clutch mounted on it. It s a lot more work but a better job overall we think. Also some seam welding, a couple of small bars in the engine bay and load of other nice tweeks. But we might have to loose the extra A pillar international bar due to the car shape. It works out that its exactly in line with the steering wheel and 40mm from my hand !! Bit too close for comfort really, but we will decide this once everything else is in. I picked up these at the weekend as well Im a bit of a OZ man, i have 8 different sets. Ive used these type of wheels for years (super T's and Leggs) and found them to be spot on. Also they are as close to the centre locks that Audi Sport used on the touring cars. I have found some one who can make me a centre lock conversion, so some pukka rims might end up on the project at some point. I popping round to see Tim the cage man on friday. So should have some pics of the cage progress up over the weekend
How many sets! Are they Seat Sport ones or other? I'm wondering how they fit these on other cars. Are they putting a slight vertical bend in them towards the window frame, to get more clearance? Look forward to the pics!
I currently have x2.5 sets of Seat Sport ones, x2 Super leggaras, x2 Superturismos. x2 super T's. In the last year ive sold x3 sets of super T's x1 set of super legarras and x1.5 set of Superturismos. Also i have a load of Rial Race spec wheels as used on the Scirroco N24 somewhere. When racing i take x6 slicks (4 fronts 2 rears) X6 Full wets and x4 inters if we are away for the weeknd so you need a few sets. Chris if you have any pics of A pillar bars please post it up. My man thinks its a bit overkill, but it still might go in. Ive thought about a bend, but think its just the angle of the screen and the steering position etc. Also it will make it very tricking to get in and out as well.
http://cagethis.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/bmw-door-576x432.jpg This is the way i have seen the majority of cages modified to run this way. Can appreciate that this does come close to your hands while in the car and isn't the best picture to show it but its the nearest i could find to what i am thinking at this time! Admittedly the shape is different to the Audi as well. Also http://www.simpsonmotorsport.com/default.asp?id=80&pid=70&name=BMW%20M3%20CSL-GT%20Race%20Car&page=Projects and the third picture down to show another similar way of doing it. Tried finding a decent E92 GT2 car pic of the cage but can't so that's no use! Looking good Mike
