8 valve engines - OEM, tuned + race outputs

Discussion in '8-valve' started by A.N. Other, Feb 18, 2011.

  1. HPR

    HPR Administrator Admin

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    Over the years there are so many different power figures in circulation it must be seen on a time line . And tuners sell engines , and clients go for the biggest number

    Most figures from articles in magazines at the time

    First 1600 gr2 engine - early 1975 > 156 PS Oskar PS
    Nothelle Golf , about 1975 > 160 PS ( also by Oscar Berg /Oscar PS)
    Spiess Scirocco 1977 > 170 PS
    Works rally Golf ? > 175 PS@ 8000 Oskar PS ( driver Jochi Kleint )
    Muller gr2 Scirocco 1978 > 176 PS Oskar PS
    Killian A80 1600 gr2 1981 187 PS
    Audi 80 Gr2 1978 > 194 PS @ Audi museum
    Muller gr2 Scirocco ? > 182 ch @8400 - 18.1mkg@6000 on weber 48
    Spiess Gr2 1978 >180 PS
    Spiess Formula SV 1978 >170 -173
    Misczyk gr2 1981 > 196 PS
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2013
  2. dogzila Forum Member

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    193PS with ITB is normal, but 193PS 1.8 8v with k jet is impossible for rally car (maybe drag car another case). :o
     
  3. WAUOla New Member

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    Hello,

    I set about getting hold of a lot of Oettinger documents a while back.
    To make it somewhat understandable, I gathered a lot of this information into the following: www.okrasa.no

    Hope this can be somewhat helpful.
     
  4. mk1. Forum Junkie

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    Eurospec cast there own 8v heads
    labelih8.jpg
    p1010070ml3.jpg

    note the larger valve sizing
    valvecomparisoonvi6.jpg

    the eurospec 8v head was a custom cast ,The Eurospec heads have extra metal cast in reinforcing the area surrounding the lifter bores. This makes it possible to run larger diameter lifters, and hence much higher lift cams.) The water passages were redesigned so it wouldn't be breached if you went with the largest valves you can find and had wider opening along it's route for higher coolant volume flow.
    The lifter bores were shaved properly so it would hold up from cracks and accommodate the tallest cam configuration.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2013
  5. mk1. Forum Junkie

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    I am surprised not to see any mention of Bertils in here :o

    Specs:
    Based on 2001 VW 2.0 / 8v
    Bore: 82.5
    Stroke:92.8
    C/R: 12.4:1
    Wiseco forged pistons (Bertils spec)
    144mm polished/balanced rods
    all ARP hardware
    SS valves (40.5mm / 35.0mm)
    BRS F3 grind camshaft (approx. 288)
    BRS solid lifters
    BRS Titanium retainers
    BRS 37mm German Springs
    BRS balanced flywheel
    Dry Sump oil system
    BRS pump 2 salvage & 1 pressure rotor
    BRS custom oil pan
    (Dynoed with Pectal FI and Ignition )

    162.6 FT-LBS @ 5200 RPM
    199.9 CHP @7200 RPM
    949210.jpg 949211.jpg 949212.jpg 949215.jpg 949216.jpg 990038.jpg F3-VW001.jpg F3-VW002.jpg F3-VW003.jpg F3-VW004.jpg F3-VW005.jpg frttop.jpg

    http://www.motorsport.com/f3/news/usf3-volkswagen-named-official-race-engine/

    http://forums.fourtitude.com/showthread.php?3802262

    http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44486&highlight=Bertils

    http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...s-Race-Engines-counterflow-8v-throttle-bodies

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...77483728.40866.154677244586458&type=3&theater
     
  6. TonyB Paid Member Paid Member

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    I had tracked down some Bertils parts to a UK motorsport parts dealer inc. rocker cover, throttle bodies and dry sump but he wanted too much for them as they were all a bit tatty and incomplete. Went to Germany in the end.

    I run a set of Spiess throttle bodies on my 8v similar to the mechanical injection motor above and they are very nice quality. Full taper from the mouth down to the head, hand finished and all expertly cast and accurate. I read on the SBD site that full taper 45mm throttle bodies will flow more that a set of 48's. As I recall the Spiess ones are 46.5mm so being full taper flow well. The problem with them is they are too long really as they are designed for F3 engines that make more torque than power due to the restricted air. I have bespoke trumpets fitted to keep the length down and get over 220bhp at around 7500rpm so good enough for an 8v.

    I just like them as they have history to them as much as anything. They were originally on a 91 Dallara F3 car, a similar car (not the exact same one) car that Michael Schumaker won the F3 World Championship with in 1990. Gives the engine bay a bit of interest :)
     
  7. Lhasa2008 CGTI Regional Host

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    I've been meaning to post a bit of info about my 8v for a while, as there doesn't seem to be many road going tuned 8v's nowadays. Thought some of you might find this useful.

    176bhp@5750rpm
    196lbft@2400rpm (approx)

    Is there any more possible from this engine? Schrick 304 cam perhaps?

    Below is the recently rolling road run.

    TSR 2008cc short block
    Custom spec Dave Crisell/Grant Motorsport head 41mm inlet, 36mm exhaust
    Grant Motorsport fast road cam
    R1 bike carbs
    RollingRoadSept14.png
     
  8. mr hillclimber Club GTI Supporter and Sponsor

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    Strong curve, but the figures are waaaaaay over the top. Totally impossible to achieve 196ibft of torque at any rpm from an 8v...and most 16v's of any make..2ltr or under....let alone down at that low rpm.

    Depending on the actual cam used peak power could be pushed further up the rev band with ease...I'd guess the current cam is something like a 272-276 duration. To go bigger the C.R needs to be known and adjusted to suit a cam change subject to what it is now...and find a rolling road that gives real figures at the wheels and a realistic flywheel conversion.
     
  9. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    I am inclined to agree with Jason regarding the how realistic is the reading.

    In order to understand how the engine performs in reality, my questions relate to this qoute, "112bhp -> 114bhp -> 124bhp > 146bhp -> 176bhp ->". Were these measurements all taken at the same dyno place? And do you have the plot overlays to show the improvements from base 112bhp to this test?

    I should also point out, for a performance engine ( numbers aside), the torque profile peaks far too low @ ~2400rpm, which suggest diesel like characteristics for in gear acceleration*.

    Your experience from driving the car I am sure, might suggest otherwise. If that were the case, then it would mean the torque profile shown here is actually incorrect and invalidates the reading as engine torque is directly proportional to axle torque and vehicle acceleration force.

    *I would expect a car like yours, with an engine like that, to have maximum acceleration at 4-4.5krpm. This equates to maximum engine torque at 4-4.5krpm as well.
     
  10. Lhasa2008 CGTI Regional Host

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    Agree with the comment about the torque. I'm taking the torque value with a healthy pinch of salt, but I trust the bhp to be accurate plus/minus a few bhp, as the engine has recently shown 150bhp@wheels on a separate dyno. I'm still running a std 020 'box and have previously measured 30.4 bhp transmission loss at stealth racing.
     
  11. Lhasa2008 CGTI Regional Host

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    112/114/124 were all at the same dyno, but unfortunately no longer available.
    146 was at stealth running std k-jet, we saw just short of 150bhp on the dyno but tweaked the vernier pulley a bit to get a better curve lower down.

    The 176 was on different dyno with a custom ported inlet manifold and r1 bike carbs and new 4branch manifold. On the road a huge difference in driving feel between K-jet and the bike carbs. Day and night.

    :thumbup: that's exactly what stealth dyno showed when on k-jet.
    But now with the bike carbs, the engine picks up so much quicker with a rock solid idle, none of that usual lumpy k-jet experience, incredible difference.
     
  12. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    Ah.

    Test 1-3 compatible - (dyno unknown)
    Test 4 different dyno - Stealth (Sun Ram 12)
    Test 5 different dyno - Ricci Concept ( unknown dyno)

    Your feedback suggests and even faster car than after test 4, meaning test 5 maybe is likely to be a false reading, particularly as 196lbft is the torque generated by a lightly turbocharged engine. What was you redline by the way?

    My suggestion would be to at least retest at Stealth Racing ( if possible), with car as last tested at Ricci, The you would have at least one older test to reference.

    We recently tested a Fully built GMS 2E lump + cam CR etc at the ClubGTI/Badger 5 dyno day and while is was certainly stronger than a stock 8 GTI, tested on the same day, it was not over 150bhp on Bill's rolls.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2014
  13. Lhasa2008 CGTI Regional Host

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    Limiter kicks in at 6300rpm


    Agree, wish Stealth was a few hours closer.:(

    Assume that was on k-jet, rather than bike carbs?
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2014
  14. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    No on Digifant. Running on carbs would have helped just a tad but you would still be clipped by the ignition system.
     
  15. mr hillclimber Club GTI Supporter and Sponsor

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    Certainly closer to the truth than the "quote me happy" rollers. I tend to see around a 15-17% transmission loss from engines that have been run on the engine dyno then on the rollers, so around 25hp from a 170 hp engine should make around 145 at the wheels...which they do.

    I just did a 2ltr PB based engine with a 276 cam and 42/33 head on digi...made high 120's at the wheels, so around low 150's at the flywheel @ 6000, peak torque at 4,500 - 155ibft with around 120 ibft @ 3000. That engine would make around another 10hp peak on open induction.

    If you fancy a trip South Lhasa we'd gladly run it for you.
     
  16. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    Also on open induction, I would expect in the example you gave to have say not only 10bhp more but also shift the rpm right by ~500 rpm or so. Torque would also drop down about 5-8 lbft and also shift higher in the rpm band.

    Still not 176bhp@5700rpm. The plot above looks like a stock profile amplified somewhat.

    Maybe a candidate for your dyno day;)
     
  17. mr hillclimber Club GTI Supporter and Sponsor

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    I'm game!

    Yes it would hang on a little better too...the digi car drops 10hp @ 6500, though on the cam used it would only hang on a couple hundred rpm more before dropping.
     
  18. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    He said is rev limiter was 6300. Digis run like 'lean burn' at high rpm!
     

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