Can we have a discussion on this ? I`m genuinely interested in doing so Put aside corner speeds from running slicks, what benefits would a novice have from running them instead of road tyres ? At the moment, Matt is wanting to improve himself, not just the car (yet). Take his steering lock application as an example. With slicks, the tyre squeal wouldn`t be anywhere near as obvious as in his video and he may not have even asked for advice. By running 595`s, there was squeal and he was aware enough to realise that was telling him something, hence this thread.
+1 Bring out the space savers I fully understand this concept.. Similar to driving in bad weather.. teaches you more about car control than driving fast!
Nige, cool happy for a friendly discussion etc. I’m not saying your completely wrong, i understand where you’re coming from and the theory on it. I wouldn’t say Matt is a novice though more an intermediate and has had a decent amount of track time. If he has built the car to this standard already, he must have a good mechanical knowledge and appreciation of how a car works and handles etc. Also he shows knowledge of ambient temperatures, tyre pressures and some knowledge of suspension settings and how they affect the cars handling on the track and about grip levels etc Hi Matt Novice for me is 1-4 trackdays, doesn't understand lines yet, turning in points apexs etc and still learning about car control. Matt knows what hes is doing out there, maybe not perfect. But i dont know matt that well so could be off the mark. Guaging people from forums is hard work as we all know. As far as im aware the 595's squeal anyway under load. So this might be a bit misleading and cant be associated with a direct incorrect technique. Even on the slow 2nd gear corners with minimal loads and steering inputs it squealing. I do agree Matt is over steering in a few corners and in a few places has to take off some. But this could be because the car is not responding correctly to steering inputs Ie too much body roll due to the extra VR6 weight and not enough camber. So we need to get the car right first. The camber he has put on will help this, but he still needs to control weight transfer and an extra 100lbs spring on the front would help this. If you read my previous posts ive advised a few sessions with an instructor to work on his technique then get onto slicks in the near future. Progression. But i wouldn't advise anyone ever to go out on track on ditchfinders simply dangerous IMO. Road tyres are for the road and track tyres are for circuits and ditch finders are for ditches! Also i would not recommend anyone on their first trackday or novices to go out on slicks or i would not advise this on a car which i think is not set up for it or can't handle it. Matt's car is right for it, cage, LSD diff, 4 pot brembos etc and with some work over the next few track days he and it should be spot on. Also i have advised when he does go to slicks then i would bin the AVO suspension and fit a suitable kit which can handle higher spring rates and slicks. You have to look at the bigger picture in hand and ultimate goals. Until the car is set up right for a Mk2 with a boat ankor up front, which i think is very important in this case. Then we cant really gauge the driving exactly. It could be doing things rather than matts driving. We all know boat ankors dont handle Looks like your son 'matt' is doing well already then, good to see.
I kind of see where you're coming from. I've done some laps round the ring where I've deliberately driven it on road tyres, and tried to be as smooth as possible to avoid breaking traction and howling like a banshee on turn-in. I think this is a good lesson in smoothness, taking the best line with the minimum steering input. I think it's probably easier to do on road tyres, because it happens at a lower speed, and generally a bit more progressively than on sticky rubber. If you get it wrong, I think you're more likely to get away with it, or at least have a smaller accident! I think in an understeery front wheel drive car, this is useful to learn how to drive quickly without upsetting the car. Having said that, I was on Toyo T1Rs, not cheapo stuff, and I wouldn't go near a track on mixed ditchfinders from the local part worn place (not that you said you were).
Can I start by saying that I'm not disagreeing with what either NigeP or Pascall are saying, they're both experienced track drivers & light years ahead of me ability wise, but I have to echo what Mike is saying above. I did the Autometrix VAG day at Combe last year in the pouring rain with Accelara ditch finders on the front & nearly bald Yokohamas on the rear & TBH it was great fun, the car was sliding around at relatively low speeds which is a great way to learn car control.
I agree road tyres are good for learning about car control and a safe way to explore this for Novices. I think maybe i look at these road tyres from a different perspective. 888's for me are road tyres rather than what people call 'sticky tyres' fairly normal really and what i class as sticky tyres are molded cut slick road tyres in soft compounds. It all depends on what angle you look at it.
I don't think the land of Kung Fu is the only possible source of shoddy tyres. If you've ever driven on 'Stomil' tyres which are a Polish budget brand from years ago (made from wood to last longer, but not for grip) then you'd know what I mean
Yes, but you're a long way from being a learner now. I can imagine that when you're used to slicks, then anything else is frustrating and a bit of a pointless drive. Meanwhile, for us mere mortals, an R888 is a major upgrade
I don't think you can pass judgement properly on the 595 RSR tyres till you have sorted your suspension & geometry out first. If learning about the car & car control are the aims, then an airfield day or track with lots of run off is the place to be.
Some great discussion in this thread When my son drove the 328 (I was putting Mat, but its confusing), we did it at Blyton with some other CGTi guys. The huge run-off and no barriers to hit meant he could practise. If he outbraked himself (which he did), so what, no harm done. It was a perfect environment to explore the limits of the car. If he was doing Cadwell or somewhere similar, we wouldn`t be doing it on low-grip tyres with questionable handling traits, but for a bit of a laugh and exaggerating weight transfer effects, they were ideal. Really made him try and be smooth. My first trackday was on Nankang`s, at Bedford. By the end of the day, I was braking and they were `chirping` at the point of lockup, tyre squeal if entering a corner too fast etc. Next time I fitted 888`s, yeah I went quicker and could stay out longer, but that wasn`t the point. I`ve done trackdays in the wet on bald 888`s, no grip, low speeds and brilliant fun. This was intentional. Bald 888`s, lift off oversteer. Fantastic fun and I learnt loads. A lot of it depends on the attitude you take to the TD too. If it`s with a load of mates, you don`t want to be the only one of crappy tyres when everyone else is on stickies, its far more fun to have close lapping in similar cars. If you are going by yourself for the purpose of learning and experimenting, I still feel lower grip tyres are better.
That was the point i was trying to make Mike maybe i see it from the other side so to speak. My first ever time on track was was at a testday in a Formula ford single seater on slicks with only 10 mins before hand in a LHD Honda Prelude VTEC to learn the track. My second time on track was in a full on race car on full slicks on a test day at castle coombe in October on a horrible cold damp misty morning. I learned a lot that day about car control. I do think a lot people are wary of 'Slicks' like a black art! Where in fact once you get them warm and get used to them they are actually very forgiving and controllable. They dont just 'let go' like a lot of tyres they are very progressive and will warn you early if your loosing grip and slide very slowly. I know a lot of people say slicks are expensive but i can pick up a set of 4 Dunlop EX BTCC slicks with 20 mins use in mint condition for nearly half the price of 1 235/40/17 R888 Even a new 205 15 R888 is close to a slick price now. Maybe we need to start a Slick tyre thread as this is getting off topic. Where track day users can post there thoughts on moving from road tyres or 888's to slicks etc to help others who might be in that position or thinking about it or have done it.
Similar posts Nige, from different angles at the same time 1m apart. This is what makes a forum like this so good, a melting pot of info and experiences.
That`s what I`m trying to say too. I think we are saying something very similar to each other, just in a different way.
It's easier to have a big accident on slicks. As the slip angles make them a lot less progressive. And the feeling of safety And grip you have with them... Until it runs out! where your going to be carrying a lot more speed! Everything happens nice and slowly on road tyres allowing you to input corrections before you lose control. This luxury is at much more of a premium with slicks. I didn't really read the first few pages of this thread but have slip angles been discussed!?
Some of my most enjoyable track days have been in rubbish cars on rubbish tyres in rain and snow, racing is about going fast, trackdays are about having fun. Not saying I don't enjoy going fast, I love it but sliding cars around is fun and that moment when your not sure if your going to get it back is great, fwd or rwd both can be huge fun (rwd more so )
Might be an idea to read the early pages as slicks is a side topic that has cropped up on this page, just trying to get a VR6 Mk2 to handle better and driver to improve technique. Still on the basics here. Be interested to hear you opinion on this.
Righty ho! Bascally, as with the championship cars that run on standard geometry with regards to pick up points etc, the main aim as with getting any FWD car to handle is contact patch and camber control. when the car is lowered to the point the wishbones are level, any movement through the normal arc of travel, the front wheels will lose front camber. So letting the car roll is the issue. Hence standing the car up on very heavy spring rates. This obviously makes the tyre work very hard, so tyre pressures/temps need to be monitered carefully. The rear is just a case of getting the slip angle right on corner entry so that the front wheels are pointing the correct direction as soon as possible so you can get on the power as soon as possible. Normally achieved by: The most important factor, limiting rear droop. Also increasing rear tyre pressures/increasing rear spring rate. For an example. with my realatively lightwright 1.8 KR in the front, I still run 800lb springs allround. and 50 psi rear tyre pressures (cold). All this is based on having an open diff, which is a masive compromise.
